Thanks sumpter. I think that the flats at Cass were more of an open frame. That's what I want to make. Regarding the Madacy video, I bought it whan I was in Cass, and it was pretty good, altho the quality I thought was poor. Several weeks later I bought Green Frog's video on Cass, and lo and behold, it was identical to Madacy's, but with much better quality. It was quite eveident that they were the same tapes, so I called Green Frog and was told by the president that they actually sold the rights of their film to Madacy, but were unaware that they were going to market it. Bottom line was that it would've been impractical for them to sue Madacy. I sent the tape back and asked for a refund, but of course, never got it. You live and learn.