HMS Eskimo designing ships for dummys

Discussion in 'Ship & Watercraft Models' started by barry, Jun 18, 2005.

  1. barry

    barry Active Member

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    rails

    Hi Jim

    Thanks for the kind words and the advice and I will agree with you that is a classic way to build rails. My problem is that I do not seem to be able to measure accurately anymore and get confused as to which gap I have got to on the plan, so to me building in situ is the answer but it would be nice to find a way of sticking thin wire on to the stanchions which does not stick me to it as well which is what always happens to me with superglue. Oh how I wish I could use it. It has to be fast cos my hands do not hold still anymore than a few seconds.

    barry
  2. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Barry, I have to admit I use CA very rarely, and only if PVA doesn't do the job right in the first instance, because I tend to stick myself to too many things, including the model. :shock:

    It seemed to me using a thin strip of paper to drip the CA down from the nozzle to the thread was a nice trick...at least until the point that the glue runs up the strip and sticks to your fingers! But, with enough space between where the nozzle touches the strip and where you are holding the paper strip from above, it might just work! Using a needle mounted to a dowel is another good way to apply CA to only the places that you want it to be. Working straight from the nozzle just doesn't work for me either...my shakey hands cause all sorts of problems unless the pads of my palms are planted on the work surface or otherwise supported. :roll:

    What about cutting the wire long enough to span the frame for the stancion locations, the ends being held in place with tape at the proper spacing, and then wrapping thread around the wires for the railing (or simply laying them on top) and gluing it in place at the intersection with the wire stanchions while still on the frame, and then soaking the thread parts with CA to stiffen them up? You could then trim the wire stanchions using wire cutters flush with the upper rails, and even leave yourself some extra on the bottoms for the holes in the deck. Okay, maybe not, but it just might be worth experimenting with to see if it works. Just don't post any photos of you sitting there with this wire and thread combo glued all around your hands, okay, I won't be able to take it. :lol:

    As to the measurements, how about using thin strips of paper which you use to mark the stanchion locations; just put them along the deck area and use a pencil to make little tick marks to show the spacing...you can then transfer those tick marks to another piece (and make a duplicate so you have the same distances on two strips of paper, one to be used for the upper and the other for the lower spacing grids on the rack). If you do it this way you could probably use the same template and make rails for both sides of the vessel at the same time as the rails for each side would most likely be mirror images of each other...except for the occasional opening for ladders that you might find in the house areas. I use this "tick strip" method a lot for measuring in and around the model, and if the pencil is sharp enough it tends to work well...often better than trying to take measurements using a set of dividers...they always seem to slip a bit somewhere between the place of measurement and the place where I want to transfer the measurement.

    Anyway, back to modeling...some of these ideas might work, some don't, but it's always fun to try and figure out which is which...and get a kick when they do work out. :D

    Keep at it, mate! She's a beautiful ship that gets better with each step.

    Cheers!

    Jim
  3. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Hi Jim

    Well I like the tick strip for the rails which would certainly help I can't think why I have not tried it before I used that metod to measure the stern hull plating..........thinks ossification is setting in

    barry
  4. Bowdenja

    Bowdenja Active Member

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    We got some stuff at the building supply store, over-here it's called "hardware cloth" it comes in different sizes. If you can find it, it is basically small squares of soldered wire. If you can find the right size maybe this would work for railing.

    Cool build barry...........I've been keeping up. Well done and well documented. Thanks!

    john
  5. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Railings again

    Hi All

    Latest try on the nylon railings much better if you do not have clutter to contend with. I should have decided on what method I was going to use for railings at the beginning and punched all the holes through first and each deck requiring railings should have been railed up before any extras were added.

    This set was glued at the start and allowed the PVA harden with a knot around the first stanchion, then the stanchions were painted halfway up with PVA. The thread was pulled in a smooth curve round the glued rails and attached with a couple of turns around the deck break stanchion. The thread was then teased into the right height all the way along and a gentle press with a finger on each one.

    Jim

    I think this where your super glue idea will come into it's own for stiffening the thread and as there is a clear drop for any accidents with the hull turned on it's side I should be able to manage this.

    John

    I will lookout for the netting over here thanks for the tip.

    [​IMG]

    A general view of the railings so far the mistakes on the upper deck are that I should have put an extra stanchion behind the bridge screen and that you should go point to point with glueing and not try and twist it at each corner or angle.

    [​IMG]

    At least I did not glue the top structure down too much so I was able to get a clear run at the foredeck. The other tip is not to worry about gaps in the rails these get an extra coat of glue and then sliced out with a very sharp blade.

    I used thin copper wire for the stanchions which bends too easily I think steel would be better on reflection

    barry
  6. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Outstanding results, Barry! :D

    Did you find it easier than using that soldering method? I believe using threads soaked in either glue or paint make great rails, and are easy to lay up once you get into a routine, as long as you use threads that aren't too fuzy...even then the fuzz lays down as you apply glue/paint most times.

    I agree, I like using steel wire since it doesn't bend as readily as copper, but it looks like a brilliant job even if done with copper.

    Actually, any job where you don't end up gluing yourself to the model should be considered a success, right? :lol: You did a superb job of the railings, mate.

    Cheers!

    Jim

    Looking forward to more when you can.
  7. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Aft Main Deck rails

    Hi All

    Just a progress report on the railings I don't know how many stanchions there but it's a lot and they are a bit wavy and without digital photography picking out every fault they don't look too bad. It's a job that does get you gritting your teeth at times when the cotton will not loop round the laststanchion which is a bit loose and the glue is drying fast. I added the first coat of gray acyllic to tone down the bright metal and the "wire" rails.

    Jim

    For me this method is esier than using the soldering iron especially at this size. The rails are nearer to 1/250th scale as well and at least I do not get stuck to the model as you say that's got to be success. I now have a few ideas for narrow ladders just have to see if it works.


    [​IMG]
    bow view
    [​IMG]
    aft view

    The after searchlight deckhouse and the quad vickers platform will have canvas dodgers as I have not seen a photograph of this class and year of ship with bare rails round these areas. C gun deck will require railings which will be a bit difficult to do I think. I have also found the position of several winches at last but there are not as many as "Savage". I think these ships got more and more cluttered as the war dragged on. I am a bit windy of putting rails around the pompom at the moment. The torpedo tubes will need the pneumatics adding as well.

    barry
  8. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Great job, Barry!

    The problem in getting the thread to wind just the way you want it to and the hundreds of stanchions you had to install have paid off big time, I think...and all without getting stuck to the model! Well done.

    Looking forward to seeing the ladders.
    Steady as she goes, mate!

    Cheers!

    Jim
  9. garyj36

    garyj36 Member

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    Barry , try trimming the ladders from window screen material
  10. barry

    barry Active Member

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    winches

    Hi All

    This still needs a lot of work and I was obviously tired when I drew the black lines. I have never been able to produce good winches as I cannot get the little triangles to line up squarely. I am sure someone must have done this before but the idea is make it from thin paper, colour the bit that fits on the deck to suit, bend it up fit the barrel glue on the ends and the triangles if you not a purist it glues down as is or you cut the base out ,and at least the triangles line up. I guess it's back to photoshop to fix the mess and also to downsize it a bit for the lifeboats.

    [​IMG]

    @Jim

    the rail is only wound round the start and end posts and the rest is glued and teased into place with a toothpick

    garyj

    sounds good I will have to try and find some.

    barry
  11. Leif Oh

    Leif Oh Member

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    I really admire this effort of designing parts on your own. Good job, Barry!
  12. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Brilliant work, Barry, both in designing as well as execution of the various little parts you are creating. Looks to me like you've got a great start on the winches. Should look super when you've fine tuned them a bit more...just a question about the direction of the lines on the drum portion of the winch...maybe I'm not looking at it right, but I assume you want to depict the wire rope winding around the drum; it seems the lines are going across, not around the drum...if I am looking at it wrong, please excuse me.

    As to the ladders, are these the tubular, to be climbed vertically types or the stairway version with handrails? Either way I have no doubt you will come up with some great looking ladders, based on your other builds.

    Looking forward to more photos as you continue with this beautiful build.

    Cheers!

    Jim
  13. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Winches and boats

    Hi All

    I must have been tired even bothering to draw the black lines on the winches last night as you will see from the not to brilliant pictures.

    Jim & Leif

    Thanks for the kind words.

    Jim
    I was thinking of vertical tubular ladders the others I still cannot cut them well enough at 1/250th but who knows inspiration may strike. I read your comments on rigging tonight and had a quiet chuckle I've got to rig the funnels and boats next and no way can I pull your tricks.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I got carried away with the whaler and made the gunwhales far too thin as you can see by the bend in one side the winches are the 3 brown blobs under the forward davits Thee coin is a £1 piece. (That tells you a lot if you are not english I'm sure)

    Maurice I guess you would have worked out the scaling long before me !

    barry
  14. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Hi, Barry! :D

    Fear not, mate, you can still do it...I did the same thing with Krakow's stacks...got ahead of my self and put them in place before giving the stays a proper think through. Here's what I ended up doing....

    You CAREFULLY pierce holes into the top of the stacks where the stay wires are to be fixed, using a very sharp needle or pin. If you apply too much force and deform the stack holes a bit, fear not, paper is flexible and can be prodded gently back into the proper shape when done. I trust you have not yet added the stack screens on top? Good, then you are aces! Take the thread you are going to use and soak the end with CA glue and let it dry to stiffen the end real good. When dry it will be very stiff and make a wonderful needle to help thread the string through those holes...which you do, but first put a knot in the string so that when you pull it through it will stop at the hole. You are threading from the inside of the stack, through the hole and out of the stack. As you pull the knot towards the hole from the inside, put a dab of white glue on the knot, then gently pull the string until the knot stops at the hole from inside the stack. Let it dry well, and that end of the wire is done!

    For the belaying point on the deck, locate where that is and, again using the very sharp pin or needle, poke a hole into the deck. Now this is the tricky part...you will thread the wire/thread into that hole until you get most of the slack out of the thread. It will not be tight enough now, but we will take care of that soon enough. Once the thread is in the hole and most of the slack is out, put a dab of white glue on the hole and thread. Let it dry just a bit until it starts to set, then, using another needle, glently and steadily push the thread into the glued hole more, a little at a time until you think you have all of the slack out...leave the needle in the hole with the thread to hold it in place and let the glue dry even more, but not totally set. White glue is great for this because it gradually sets and starts to hold the thread in the hole better and better. If the thread loosens up while you are doing this, as it might, simply put another little dab of glue and continue to work the thread back into the hole and, again, hold it in place with the needle. When you feel the glue is almost totally set, usually a few minutes, twist the needle gently to release it from the glue and gently remove the needle...the thread should stay put and be nicely taut in the hole. Put another dab of glue in the hole left by the needle and let it all dry thoroughly. And that should be it! If you time it right, you can have one thread setting with the needle while you install the other thread on the opposite site of the stack, so that it evens out the tension on the stack and doesn't pull out the thread with the needle in it. Well, at least that's the idea. :lol: But I have the fullest confidence you can do it. :wink:

    I hope this helps give you some ideas on how to rig the the stacking stays. I would suggest using CA to set the thread in the deck hole, but I know how you are with CA and I don't want to see the next posted photo showing your finger stuck to the deck and thread. :lol:

    Cheers!

    Jim
  15. silverw

    silverw Member

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    Yup.... your work just amazess me Barry... Great stuff!!!
    Do you have any kind of rabbit's foot , or some kind of charm, that would get me back to work!!..

    ...Keep at er Barry!!
  16. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Eskimo winches and boats

    Boring there was some light and I had to reply anyway.

    Jim

    Having spent all that time sticking pins in I decided to rebuild the funnels and try and do it properly anyway but the info was as usual timely. I might try using fishing thread but I find it a bit difficult to tie knots in for some reason and I am not sure what glue to use. Luckily only the davits are glued down on the ship along with the winches as I have to make sure the funnel stays will miss them and the boats. I got jammy with the whaler gunwhale the bit out of place had not stuck down so I was able to straighten it.

    A couple of points on building these bits I made the winches by laminating 2 sheets of 80 gsm paper no way was I going to roll carbord at this size. The winch drum is a tight rolled strip of 80gsm. It is very easy to get the drum lined up using this method, form the winch base, open it back out, stick one end of the winch drum in place, apply glue to the other end and fold it back together. The whaler floorboards are doubled up to give strength and although they required a bit of trimming to allow for this I think it worked out quite well.

    Silverw

    if I had one I would send you it. I miss your inputs always something different. The reason I keep going, is doing this my fingers keep working if I stop they lock up and they don't spring back like they used too.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    By the way I got an email today from the secret 3d program saying I could collect on Aug 1 and that the first 100,000 get quite a few extras maybe this world has some good guys in it.

    Lastly I should put this in the "I know I am a cardmodeller cos" my wife arrived home the other day and announced she had bought 2 bottles of perfume because she had got such a good price on them and wandered off. A few minutes later she arrived back with the plastic packaging and with the comment "I did insist he gave me them in the boxes with no printing on them as they would be great for your models". No answer to that one I think, one up to the ladies.

    barry
  17. bholderman

    bholderman Member

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    Greetings,

    This isn't probably true for every case, but in mine, I have 3 kids and a wife struggling in one of the most expensive economies in the U.S., my wife recognizes that sitting down for an hour at night building helps with my sanity.

    I'm really enjoying this build. There are quite a few historic ships that I would enjoy building, but are not available as a card model. So this is a great primer, thanks.

    Cheers,
    Brad
  18. Maurice

    Maurice Member

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    Barry

    Work out the scaling? I couldn't even find the wretched winches on my plan.

    It's looking betterer and betterer all the time, your new design technique works extremley well.
    In your capable hands it seems to have the incredible advantage of actually producing something.
    :D

    Cheers
    Maurice
  19. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Applying Jim's rigging tips or trying anyway

    Hi All

    It was chucking it down with rain so I had the whole day to try out Jim's rigging tips. I rebuilt the funnels to start with, the originals were just thrown together as a test. The funnels rigging was a huge improvement on the last ones, the davitsI should have made from heavier cardboard as I could not get enough pull on them without bending them in half I think in future I will use thin wire for these lines. If you use polyester as I did you must leave plenty of time for the davit guys to dry in the deck holes. When I get to doing Hood's funnels they will have to be wire because of not thinking ahead.

    It would be almost impossible to rig this ship fully built as you have to keep checking the lines will clear the deck houses. I will now have to give some thought as to how to fit the mast aerials etc. and there are a lot of them I think.


    Jim

    The top tip you gave is pushing the needle into the deck hole to tighten the lines that works a treat to make the holes in the deck at this stage instead of at the start of the build. I used three needles a lancet then a small round headed pine and finally a good sized long headed pin.

    You will note the stain on the deck around the holes believe it or not it's superglue I used a pin held in the hole and dripped the superglue down that and look no finger or skin left sticking to the deck.


    Maurice

    Sorry I forgot to tell you I had sight of a more detailed plan of a Tribal for the winches under the boats I don't think Ive got the angles on them right but that does not show too much.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    It helps with overall effect of the model the stray line needs to be attached to the AA plaform which cannot be glued in place as yet.
  20. Jim Krauzlis

    Jim Krauzlis Active Member

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    Well done, Barry! :D

    I glad some of my ramblings actually had some use to it. :lol:

    You are moving along at quite a pace on this build, and she looks fantastic!

    What are your thoughts on building the mast aerials? I know wire would probably work best because of the thin/strength ratio is too good to ignore, or maybe a paper tube with a wire core? The yard arms would probably work best if made out of thin wire, and would withstand the rigging better too. I know you like to solder them, but I've had very good luck with using just PVA, and painting it over when dried...just a thought, but whatever you end up using I know they will look grand!

    Keep at it, mate, and more pics when you can.

    Cheers!

    Jim