See why we need an logging/NG forum, Shamus? I was looking at the pictures for the bridge contest and it brings up the question of grade. Shamus you're running a 5% grade there, and Pete mentioned a very steep grade in the next post. I know those mortal flatlanders get all nervy whenever they get over about 2% grade. What's a realistic maximum for a logging layout in HO and what's realistic for NG? I'm thinking the narrow gauge trains are short, and the logging trains are too, and they can go very steep. Can we do 10% if we are only pulling 2 or 3 cars? While we're at it, what's working for min radius for you guys, HO logging, HOn3 and HOn30??? I'm picturing Jack N., with a S--- eating grin, going up a %10 grade with the drivers slipping 1/2 a turn with each steam chuff, hair unkempt, needing shaved.