Adirondack sawmill questions

Discussion in 'Logging, Mining and Industrial Railroads' started by Muddy Creek, Aug 18, 2004.

  1. silver

    silver Member

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    Does anyone here know much about the White Bus Co.? The Grasse River RR/ Emporium Lumber Co. in upstate New York had a 1931 model that was converted to rail use as passenger and mail delivery to the town of Clifton-Fine AKA Cranberry Lake. At some point possibly after it was no longer used it was called the "Jumping Goose" as a kind of shout out to the geese in colorado.

    I have found an O scale model of a 1936 White bus decorated for national park tour services on e-bay. I was thinking of using this as a starting point for a model of this. My problem stems from the fact that I know the company (White bus) sometimes farmed out it's coach building and I am not shure how long the model styles lasted. Would a 1931 model look at all like the 1936?
  2. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

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    I think it will be a good starting point. Some details are different, louvers in the hood are different, the older radiator was more vertical. Some bodywork will be in order as per the photos I'm sending to your email address.

    Wayne
  3. silver

    silver Member

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    Thanks so much for the quick reply. I also started a separate thread on this sight to test the waters of knowledge on the White Bus Co. It seems that this company had a large output in these years and had a verying product line. There was no single bus style but many.
  4. silver

    silver Member

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    About the picture of the bus you sent. It is parked in front of the white building with the porch. The building in the background still exists. It was the companies storage building located on the shore of Cranberry Lake. In about 20 feet if the bus backed up it would be on the pier. If it pulled forward five feet it would be blocking state route 3. The building has lost it's porch but you can still see where it attached by niches in the clapboards. It is still painted white but now is the Emporium Store and Marina. Next door the old Emporium Company store now owned by the same people but being allowed to collapse into ruin. A real shame it may not last the winter.
  5. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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  6. silver

    silver Member

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    Wow, great picture. I haven't seen this particular view yet. The orientation seems to be taken from the roof of the mill looking east and a little south. Left of the train is the log dump pond that had direct ramps into the mill. Above the engine in the background is Silver Lake. The mill pond is a part of the lake that was separated by this berm. The berm the train is on is actually made of stacked dimentional lumber. It is still there and you can see the wood under the water. The logs on Silverlake proper are contained close to the mill. Some of these logs sunk in this area. Near the far end of the train where the berm reconnects to the shore a stove logging boat is still off to the side of the roadbed. Also in this picture you can see some things sticking vertically out of the water one of these was still there this summer. It is a pulley attached to two small gauge rails ancored in the lake bottom.
  7. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

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    Thanks for posting the picture Marc. That Shay was Emporium's main workhorse, their largest loco (92 tons.) It started life in 1902 at Lackawanna Lumber in Pennsylvania & bought in 1910 by Emporium and brought up here to the Adirondacks. In all they got 40 years of use out of it. It was later used & scrapped in 1962 by Elk River Coal & Lumber in West Virginia.

    Wayne
  8. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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    Silver,

    Thanks for the quick post. I was just going to ask about some of those things...esp was wondering if they unloaded to beither side,...now you've answered that...thanks. I noticed that the loco is uncoupled from the cars here...did the locos move out over the dump berm, or did they only push the cars onto the berm. How was unloading done, I can't see any cables, or unloading equipment (ie. jill-pokes, unloaders, rigging etc.....the line running across the photo is a power line, and it appears that the 3 small lines running up to the right might be cracks in the glass neg......I can't imagene that they're cables of any sort.) Any idea what the building in foreground was?

    Marc
  9. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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  10. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

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    Hi Silver, You're right, it is listed in the Emporium/Grasse River roster. Also briefly in the hands of Hayfield Wakeman before heading south.

    Do you think the tracks might have been tilted towards the pond side of the berm? The reason I ask is that I've seen a photo (Rails in the North Woods) of the Rich Lumber Company unloading logs into the pond in Manchester, VT. The tracks were tilted towards the water and in the photo, the loco was also uncoupled from the cars as the crew released the chains and worked the logs off by hand. When I saw Marc's picture I wondered it might be a safety procedure of some sort.

    Wayne
  11. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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  12. silver

    silver Member

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    Most of my replies are based on what I have found that remains at the site. A surprising amount is there still. As far as the photo it fills me in on a few things I found there. I cannot say weither they ran the engines over this berm. The track had an alternate runaround on land left of the mill pond. In the photo how ever the engine is clearly running on the berm. In the middle of the berm there is a two foot break that allows water circulation between the mill pond and the rest of the lake. The shape of the berm on the millpond side I don't really remember. The millpond is now in the control of a beaver so I was reluctant to poke around that side too much. On the lake side it is a pretty straight drop from the berm the water is about 3 feet deep here.

    I know there is at least one picture of the mill from the other side of the mill pond looking back towards the location of the engine. The building in the picture is right at the waters edge. Also it has that huge wide stack. I don't know what it was but if I were to speculate it could contain a way to keep the millpond heated in the cold Adirondak winters.They tried to keep the mill going. Different phases of logging was done year round and the collection areas on Silver Lake could be a way to store up logs for milling at slow times. The company owned Lynn Tractors as well as horses that were for use in the snow. It is much easier to pull logs out in the snow/ice they slide.
  13. silver

    silver Member

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    Wayne,

    I know you are also interested in mining and I assume steel production. Have you seen the cover of the new Lionel catalog. Right on the cover is a J & L steam train with hot metal cars. It looks pretty nice. I now this closer matches their PA operation but it looks tempting. Do you know how much of a railroad operation there was at the Benson mines. Were there J&L engines there or was it just a car pick up operated by NYC?

    I got an earlier version of the same engine as the one on this cover. I am really happy with it and the price was right ($100. I can't afford an O shay). I am thinking of using it as a starting point for conversion to the Emporium Lumber #33 to go with my Grasse River RR (keystone) #71 caboose.This engine was a 0-6-0 tank converted with a trailing truck to an 0-6-2. Does this seem like it would look right to you.
  14. silver

    silver Member

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    GRR lecture by Bill Gove

    Funny, after such a long time I am posting here twice in a day. The Amherst Railway Society who put on the big Springfield show in MA are going to hold a talk on the Grasse River Railway. It is scheduled for May 17, 2005. I assume it is in Amherst but if I am in the area I plan to go.

    The lecturer is Bill Gove. Does anyone here know him. A link is http://www.amherstrail.org/calendar.html.
  15. Muddy Creek

    Muddy Creek Member

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    Hello again silver,

    Bill Gove is one of the authors of the book "Rails In The North Woods" which as I said was my primary source for info on logging roads in the Adirondacks. He wrote the Emporium and the Grasse River chapters. I'll definitely plan to attend his talk if possible.

    I've been looking into the mining operations at Lyon Mountain in the Adirondacks and at Port Henry on Lake Champlain. I've found very little info about the Benson Mines online and nothing at all at my local library in Saranac Lake. I'll be taking a trip to the Benson Mines area when the museum reopens at Blue Mountain Lake on my annual bike/camping trip around the High Peaks.

    I haven't seen the Lionel Catalog but it sounds like you're keeping with the tradition by converting the 0-6-0 tank to 0-6-2 There's a photo in the book that I could scan for you if you want it. Can't remember if I sent it to you already.

    Wayne
  16. Dragon

    Dragon Member

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    Aawwwww. And here I was hoping Amherst meant Amherst NY, not MA. Drat!!!

    Anyone able to tape the Grasse River talk?
  17. silver

    silver Member

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    Bill Gove lecture possibilities

    Wayne,

    I am definitely going to get that book. I don't need a scan of the engine right now I am too busy to do anything with it just yet. I hope to get to that talk but grad school in San Diego is taking up all my time and the rest of the time I don't have is taken up by my new son Oscar. Today is his three weeks birthday.

    If any video or audio tapes are made I would love to get a copy. I would also think that the Childwold Historical Society in Piercefield (Conifer)as well as the Cilfton-Fine (Cranberry Lake) Library would appreciate copies. Both have small but strong local history collections. I would pay for these.

    My mother and father in-law run a series of music and cultural events in the Cranberry Lake area in the summer. These are run with financial help from the state. I might be able to convince them that a local history lecture could fit into thier programming. Maybe Bill Gove could be conviced to do another lecture in Cranberry Lake over the summer. Maybe it could be held in the 1921 old Emporium Company built school or even the Blue Mountain Lake Museum. William Sykes' granddaughter Virginia Sykes Dreby is still alive and quite knowledgable on the subject. I also was in contact with the son af the man who built "Rail City" in Sandy Point and attempted to preserve some of the Emporium/Grasse River equipment in the fifties. Now he runs a website and museum to his fathers muesum at the old site. Maybe a panel discussion would be interesting. I will start working on this.

    As an aside I know that a company called Green Frog has a video out with some Grasse River RR footage. Does anyone have this? What is on it? Is it worth buying?
  18. silver

    silver Member

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    Confusion over the GRR #44 Climax

    While I was playing with Google yesterday (procrastinating, but how I found the Bill Gove lecture) I found a website for the Southern New York Railway historical group. http://www.trains-n-planes.com/row/sny/sny3.htm. It is dedicated to that railroad based in Oneota. They had some information that I think is wrong on the sight but may be of interest here. They claim that this railroad recieved the Climax #44 from the Grasse River RR and then sold it to the Corry County Historical Society in the 1960's where it is today.
    Corry county is where the Climax factory was. At the Corry county website http://www.tbscc.com/museum/Climax.htm there is very little info about the engine but I don't think this info on the engines history is correct. But still wouldn't it be interesting if this was the GRR #44.

    This would not be the first time the internet is wrong.

    Has anyone seen the #12 Rail Interurban at the Strasburg RR in PA. Is this car still there? I am really interest in finding what is left of the GRR today. So far I know there is a now repainted hand pump car at the NY Tranportation Museum. The privately owned #71 caboose in Vermont. Maybe the #12 interurban and probably not this #44 Climax.
  19. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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  20. m_reusser

    m_reusser Member

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