Project Fuzz, Experts Needed !! :)

sumpter250 said:
Let's assume you want to go with the hoistable layout. First, what ever weight the framing of the layout adds, plus the plywood weight, plus the weight of scenery, buildings, and rolling stock, will result in something too heavy for standard garage framing. It is do-able, but the layout room preparation would be a major undertaking.
Click to expand...


yeah ive done the sums today bud, iused the scales at my work to weigh the materials being used in the project and the weight of the frame with the ply that is required on it = 280 pounds ... total.

on top of that i will need to add the weight of te scenery inc buildings trees mountains etc
anyone willing to hazard a guess at the weight of such items based on a 12 x 10 foot layout? just after a ballpark figure really...???

as for rolling stock this wont really be an issue as all loco's will have to be removed due to the nature of the layout and they would only be on the layout in its lowered form and that would be when its on its legs.....

as for the room preparation, you are right it is a big job but you see when its that or nothing you cant just throw your hands in the air and say its too hard :) just ask my mate polo! ....

Impossible is a word to be found only in the dictionary of fools.

Napoleon Bonaparte

as for the counterweights im going to steer away from them at this stage as the winches that i have made are geared very high so i believe even under the stress of say 450 lb's i will be able to manually raise and lower the layout(ill soon find out )

i hope im not sounding like im having a go at you as im not ive appreciated everything that has been posted in here and im using it all to check that i have thought of all angles and to complete my plans with things you guys have mentioned that i had not thought of. for instance i had not put enough thought into the method i wil use as a stoper on the roof so as not to crush mountain tops :)

also jac as you pointed out the two bolts will be a weak point and im making up a couple of plates at work that will sit over the top and bottom mountaing plates with several more bolt holes spread over a much wider distance..
 
Fuzz.......Just a thought: Ask the guys on the modular forum about weight...many carry their modules to shows and such
 
yeah good idea mate i will do.
thanks for the reply. i cant wait till i get my bench done mate, im so eager to get started on design. its just so full on hanging this thing fom the roof properly. but i just have to be patient so i dont bring the roof down ontop of my car.. :)
 
Fuzz...

Some thoughts on what I have read above... in no particular order, take 'em or leave 'em ;)

The 2x3 lumber makes a solid frame for a house when the frame is vertical, and under compression. When it is hung horizontally, it will be under compression and expansion - your milage may vary...

Since you have two winches, and there is a question about how to coordinate the lifting, why not make the layout in two parts and bolt it together once it is on the ground? Have them lift so that they are a few inches apart at the ceiling to avoid problems.

I am one of "those modular guys". A set of modules built to www.hotrak.ca standards can be handled very easily by two guys, and can be lifted by one person. I would estimate that the weight for a set (two 2x4foot modules) is about 50 lbs. This does not include legs or rolling stock. Given that the two modules make up 16 square feet (2x2x4), you are looking at roughly 3-4lbs per square foot. if your layout is 120 square feet (10x12) the you would expect it to weigh in at probably 500 lbs provided you use the foam decking exclusively. If you use 3/4" cookie cutter subroadbed (or use the ply anywhere else) you will increase the weight. Integral legs will also add weight. Lastly, your rafters will also carry the weight of whatever re-enforcement you put up there.

Hope that helps.

Andrew
 
I just weighed my modules, 2' X 4' , HO, fully scenicked....The lightest was 48 pounds, the heaviest was 53 pounds.
I would guess that the construction standard was a bit more robust than www.hotrak.ca standards, but then, I have been dragging them to shows for the last 21 years, and there has been no major damage.
The modules from my original 8' X 10' layout were considerably lighter because of the 1" X 2" framing. In both cases, open grid, and thin shell scenery were used to keep weight down.
 
length = 12.2 feet (not much more to work with on this measurement)

width = between 8 and 11 feet ( pretty flexible here )
Click to expand...
and i need to place aisles into my overall dimensions wherever is best for the track plan. ( these need to be symetrical to minimise affect on the centre of gravity)
Click to expand...
In this space in HO, you'll probably have to use a C-shaped layout. Neither dimension is big enough for the long axis of an E. 12.2 feet is just enough for two good-sized turnback curves and the aisle leading in. What sorts of equipment will you be running?
 
hey all,
andrew, its a good idea about the two piece plan but it puts me off abit to think that everytime i want to use it i have to lower and bolt together... i mean its bad enough that i have to lower at all.. :)
also that 500 lb estimation is about what i was thinking myself based on me weighing most of the building materials i will be using for the project, i was looking at 250 kilograms all up which is 550lb.
as for the weight of the reinforcing you are right it will add weight to the rafters but i am minimising that by putting the anchor points for the pulleys directly above the winches bolted straight into the end wall of my house, kinda hard to explain ill do a rough drawing of my setup and post it soon
also thanks to sumpter for your help with estimations as this also confirms what andrew is saying and what i was thinking. :)

and to trip thanks for your thoughts and i agree with you on the c shape design , its the way i was leaning.. if only i could get something down on paper thats appeals to me in terms of track plan, im so frustrated with this as i dont want to waste what little space i have.

at this stage i have very little in the way of locos and running stock so im pretty flexible as to what i buy to suit my layout but what i do like is all the stuff you guys have up in america and canada. I have a new set of life-like fa2/fb2 locos, both are powered units never been run, and i like the santa fe style trains with the steps at the front , i think they are possibly called something like sd-40's maybe? also like the ones called gp38's and gp 40's maybe..?
so yeah id like to run the sd-40's style diesel with hoppers and tankers and stuff and the fa2/fb2 set with some passnger cars , would this be appropriate you think for a c shaped layout in the 12 x 10 foot size category??

the other thing i want to do is design a separate trolley/module on castor wheels that would match up to my layout when it is in its lowered position on legs that would be like a yard table,
so a typical operating session would involve lowering my layout onto its legs , then wheeling over the yard trolley and connecting it, then driving trains out of the yard and onto the layout for operation and then eventually driving them all back o the yard , covering them up then wheeling the trolley back out of the way and raising the layout back up to the ceiling.. i would do this so as not to risk any rolling stock or locos falling off layout during the raising and lowering process.

ps any sort of sketching of possible layouts would be much appreciated even basic ideas thrown around could help a newbie such as myself , you see the whole hands on building side of things is not to bad for me as im fairly handy and surrounded by tradesmen at my work so this is good but whn it comes to trackplanning im really struggling to work out what will fit in what space..

also does anybody own a life like fa2/fb2 set and if so does this train consist handle 2-4 % grades ok whilst pulling stock?
 
Two things:

1)What is the material and size of the beam across the garage? Need to understand the load already on that beam (probably tension) and the load that it can handle(which would be ??torque). Also, drilling into it to run a bolt thru will weaken it. Better to use U-bolts.

2)This is going to be unstable, the shorter the four cables from the corners are. Recommend you position the place they come together higher up.

BTW, it appears this is your first layout? If so, have you thought about starting small to perfect some of the techniques such as laying track and getting turnouts tuned up right? Would prevent frustration in the future from having to crawl over 10 feet of plywood and scenery to fix bumpy track and derailing turnouts.
 
jayerz,

the beams across the garage are 2 hardwood 4x4's bolted together.. and u bolts are a valid idea. i have not fully poured my attention to this anchor point yet as i am currently reworking the winch mounts and making up the plates for the anchor points directly above the winches. ..

the drawing is not accurate either so the cable would be much longer therefore stabilty should not be a problem , i plan on having the meeting point of the wires 2 and a half feet above the layout, this will also act as a stop for scenery protection as the wire will not be able to pull back though the pulley where they meet, stopping the layout from going any higher.

as for smaller layouts its true i would learn alot but i would still have to hang it so i figured why not build the full size bench now, also once the c shape is worked out i should have full access to all parts of the board all the way round the board and have allowed enough cable to wind out the layout all the way to the floor if need be.
 
Hi fuzz,
This is my .02.

If you do not hang 4 cables, the table will rock and swing. If you hang 4 cables
straight up and down, the table will swing. The depicted arrangment will hang much
more stably and go up and down smoothly. The cable angles should all diverge from
each other and from the platform corners. More than about 7 degrees will stress the
top sheaves horizontally when platform is in the up position. Allowing the cable angles
to converge inward toward the center will have the same effect as outward.
 

Attachments

  • hoist.jpg
    hoist.jpg
    19.7 KB · Views: 122
cidchase said:
Hi fuzz,
This is my .02.

If you do not hang 4 cables, the table will rock and swing. If you hang 4 cables
straight up and down, the table will swing. The depicted arrangment will hang much
more stably and go up and down smoothly. The cable angles should all diverge from
each other and from the platform corners. More than about 7 degrees will stress the
top sheaves horizontally when platform is in the up position. Allowing the cable angles
to converge inward toward the center will have the same effect as outward.
Click to expand...

Yup! Though I'd have all four ropes come to the same wench location, instead of two seperate.
 
hmm...
processing, but again i must go off to work, so ill post later..
thanks bud,i have a photo at work of a slot car track strung up using loudmmusic's one winch design, it looks like a crazy spider web of cables, ill post it later.
 
cidchase said:
Hi fuzz,
This is my .02.

If you do not hang 4 cables, the table will rock and swing. If you hang 4 cables
straight up and down, the table will swing. The depicted arrangment will hang much
more stably and go up and down smoothly. The cable angles should all diverge from
each other and from the platform corners. More than about 7 degrees will stress the
top sheaves horizontally when platform is in the up position. Allowing the cable angles
to converge inward toward the center will have the same effect as outward.
Click to expand...

Excellent points by cidchase about not hanging directly up and down to prevent swinging. My 2 cents is make sure all 4 cables are at identical angles from vertical. If they are not, layout will not rise evenly.
 
its official :)

hi guys, haven't done much this week (work has been busy),but i will be welding up two brackets for my anchor points directly above the winches 2morrow and ill have those fitted this weekend. :)

I also found my plan B and confirmation that a suspended layout the size im looking at can definately be done. ill attach some pictures i found today of a guy that has a 10' x 15' layout hanging in his double garage, he also has full instructions on how he has done it so if my attempt over the next few weeks fails ill be scrapping the plan and copying this guys setp, if anyone's interested here is the link to this guys website where he explains in detail how he set his up.... http://www.birkbinnard.com/hohoist/

and here are some quick pics for those that just want a sticky beak at what im talking about, if anything it just makes me feel good inside knowing that it definately can be done. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D !!! :thumb: :thumb:
 

Attachments

  • post1.jpg
    post1.jpg
    65.5 KB · Views: 88
  • post1.5.jpg
    post1.5.jpg
    64.7 KB · Views: 87
  • post1.75.jpg
    post1.75.jpg
    60.2 KB · Views: 108
  • post3.jpg
    post3.jpg
    61.1 KB · Views: 90
hi guys,
somethings come up and it looks like there is a chance for a permanant layout on one side of the garage... :)
it seems a shame in a way as ive already wasted abit of time and money on the winch setup and stuff but i figure it will be worth it in the long run.

sooo.....

it looks like i have a 16ft by 8ft area in my garage for a ground sitting bench :)
once i confirm this ill let you guys know and we can scrap this whole thread and ill start afresh. talk soon
 
fuzzyloggin said:
hi guys,
somethings come up and it looks like there is a chance for a permanant layout on one side of the garage... :)
it seems a shame in a way as ive already wasted abit of time and money on the winch setup and stuff but i figure it will be worth it in the long run.

sooo.....

it looks like i have a 16ft by 8ft area in my garage for a ground sitting bench :)
once i confirm this ill let you guys know and we can scrap this whole thread and ill start afresh. talk soon
Click to expand...

Well, now you can dig a moat and have a drawbridge.
 
this thread is officially closed, ive been given the go ahead for almost a full half of the garage which equates to a 16 x 8 ft permanent layout, ill be starting a new thread with an accurate drawing of the space i have and im hoping to get a hand with some layout sketches , ill see you guys over there.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom