CN long hood forward

B

Biased turkey

Active Member
Apr 10, 2006
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Montreal, Canada Eh
Is it common for CN engines to run long hood forward ?
On friday, it was the 1st time I saw such a CN engine running that way. I thought it was specific only to Norfolk & western .
It is impressive. Now I won't be ashamed to run my N scale CN engines long hood forward.

longhoodforward.jpg



Jacques
 
Jacques: I think a lot of CN's early GPs were delivered long hood front, but may have been changed when the short hood was chopped.
I've seen a lot of GPs running in pairs doing local switching around Toronto, and the matching up seems random -- sometimes short hoods out, sometimes both pointing the same way (as your photo) but I don't remember and with 2 long hoods out.
Can you see the F on the frame that designates the front?
 
Jacques,

The CN Geeps were built into chop-noses in several classes. All were called "GP9RM", meaning GP9's Remanufactured in Montreal.

For road-freight service the engines were set up to operate short-hood forward, and rebuilt in 6 groups:

4000-4011, class GR-418a, 258 tons
4012-4021, class GR-418b, 258 tons
4022-4036, class GR-418c, 258 tons
3100-4116, class GR-418d, 247 tons
4117-4128, class GR-418e, 247 tons
4129-4143, class GR-418f, 247 tons.

Some were set up as switchers, and while they were marked short-hood as "Front", the control stand was set up for long-hood forward operation:

7000-7013, class GS-418a, 257 tons
7014-7043, class GY-418b, 248 tons
7044-7078, class GY-418c, 248 tons
7079-7083, class GY-418d, 248 tons

Also, several were set up as "slug-mothers", to be paired with engineless yard slugs. I believe these were also set up with the control stand for long-hood forward.

7200-7213, class GY-418a, 257 tons
7214-7231, class GY-418b, 257 tons
7232-7240, class GY-418c, 248 tons
7241-7248, class GY-418d, 248 tons
7249-7270, class GY-418e, 248 tons
7271-7280, class GY-418f, 248 tons
 
I thought it was specific only to Norfolk & western .
Click to expand...
Though it was common on early diesels of many roads, by chance, CN was one of the roads that ordered second-generation power set up to run long hood forward. Specifically, their C630Ms, if I remember right. Unlike most long-hood-forward power, they had low noses from the factory.
 
Triplex said:
Though it was common on early diesels of many roads, by chance, CN was one of the roads that ordered second-generation power set up to run long hood forward. Specifically, their C630Ms, if I remember right. Unlike most long-hood-forward power, they had low noses from the factory.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ... I don't believe any of CN's second gen. power was set up for long-hood forward operation. Some may have been set up so they could operate long-hood forward (with dual headlights on the long hood end) but the control stand was oriented towards the short hood.

True long-hood forward operation locos like those ordered by the N&W would have the control stand on the left hand side of the cab (looking at the short end) facing towards the long hood. In all my cab visits and pictures of CN power, the control stand is on the RH side of the cab, facing the short hood.
 
Thanks David, Squidbait and Triplex for taking some of your precious time to reply.
So, it looks like the data supplied by our living CN encyclopedia ( Squidbait ) matches the picture ( in our case, CN 7058 ) and confirms that some CN GP9 were built ( or rebuilt ) with the controls for long hood forward.
I guess CN 7058 is doing local switching around St. Laurent ( Montreal suburb ) from the big CN Taschereau yard ( mostly for intermodal and chemicals ) to a small yard still located in St. Laurent but on the 2 Mountains line ( mostly used by passengers trains ) . I checked St. Laurent map and I can see those 2 yards.
As soon as weather permits I'll ride my bicycle to that small yard and try to take some pictures.
I couldn't see the "F" letter on the frame. By the way, on what part of the frame exactly should I look to find that mark ?

Jacques
 
I beg to differ... I don't believe any of CN's second gen. power was set up for long-hood forward operation. Some may have been set up so they could operate long-hood forward (with dual headlights on the long hood end) but the control stand was oriented towards the short hood.
Click to expand...
Main Body That's the only place I've seen this referenced; make of it what you will.
 
Triplex said:
Main Body That's the only place I've seen this referenced; make of it what you will.
Click to expand...

OK, I've yelped to a higher power (Don McQueen) for more info.

In my own research, builder photos of MR-30a and MR-30b units show a big "F/R" at the short-hood end, right-hand side.

I think we're not on the same page with respect to a definition of "operate with long hood forward". I believe (and I'll get conformation of this) this means the unit has a pilot and headlight on the long hood, so that the unit can lead while running in reverse. To my mind, a unit set up for long-hood forward operation (like the first gen geeps) means that the control stand is oriented such that the engineer is looking down the right-hand side of the long hood, and "forward" on the reverser means the long-hood is going down the tracks first. :)

A fine hair, perhaps, but that's what us nit-pickers do. :p ;)
 
Any engine can lead long hood forward or short hood forward regardless of what direction is actually the front on the locomotive. CN's "big alcos" (MLWs) definately did not have the long hood set up as the front of the engine.

When it is stated that a particular engine is set up for long hood forward operation it usually means that the controls are oriented such that that is the default operating direction (ie, the long hood is the front of the engine).
 
acsoosub said:
Any engine can lead long hood forward or short hood forward regardless of what direction is actually the front on the locomotive.
Click to expand...

While technically true, not entirely accurate. Most of CN's road switchers (for example) did not have a "proper" pilot on the long hood end, or a "proper" headlight, just a single backup light. For that reason, (and perhaps legal ones as well) they weren't considered capable of running long-hood forward.
 
With regard to the photograph of the C-630 in Triplex's link, a friend also pointed out that the long-hood does not have a complete set of 3 class lights (white, red, green), but only red. Just another indication to me that the statement about long-hood forward operation is incorrect.
 
Marc, you had me confused with your reference to the photo, until I realised that you were referring to the one in the link. :v8: The loco in Jacques' original photo, as a member of class GY-418c, is indeed set up to operate long hood forward, and has a complete set of class lights and a plow on the pilot. The guy gawking out the cab window obviously isn't running the loco, unless he's got awfully long arms. ;):-D

Wayne
 
I didn't know my question would start such a controversy lol
I'm afraid I opened a can of worms :)
Interesting replies from anyone.
By the way Wayne , who is Marc ? Squidbait or Triplex ?

Jacques
 
Squidbait said:
While technically true, not entirely accurate. Most of CN's road switchers (for example) did not have a "proper" pilot on the long hood end, or a "proper" headlight, just a single backup light. For that reason, (and perhaps legal ones as well) they weren't considered capable of running long-hood forward.
Click to expand...

Just because something's illegal doesn't mean it can't be done. :p:twisted:

"May be done" is a whole other matter... :rolleyes:
 
OK, from the horses' mouths (2 engineers, 1 operator, and one expert):

a)
From Joe Zika -
A "Bold" Statement ... in the photo caption about the CN 2000's being originally set up to run longhood forward when new " just because " he happened to catch a pair that way. It shows their flexibility by being able to run long hood forward. All the 2000's I've been in in my Operator's day's in the mid 80's were set up for short hood operation to my knowledge with no indications of being modified nor any signs of dual control stands either for that matter. Why go through the trouble of ordering twin classification lights on the short hood end and a half pilot if it isn't set up for short
hood forward operation ?
See http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/cn/cn2001ast.jpg
b)
From Don Janes -
Regarding the photo on tonight's Froth, the CN never ran the 2000 or 2300 series units long hood first in normal operation. It may have occurred on occasion under unique circumstances but that's all. I remember running a 2300 backwards from Stratford to London account our lead unit was BO'd at Stratford. It had to be run at 25 mph according to the rules as there was no pilot on the long hood end. Someone was just mis-informed when they put that caption with the photo. I would guess those footboard pilots on the long end were removed at some point also.
c)
From Phil
... no CN M630's were not equipped to run with the long hood forward, the engineers control stand was set up for short hood operation only. The only CN units that I know of that were set up to run long hood forward were the GP-9 fleet before being chop nosed and of course the RS-18's used on the Tempo train had dual control stands. The newer SD70ACe's , SD70M-2s and Dash 9's that are equipped with a pilot and ditch lights are allowed to operate long hood forward. In fact I ran a train 338 from Ft.Erie to Mac yard 2 weeks ago with a 5600 leading long hood forward.
d)
From Will Baird -
... none (were) set to run long end first. ... I guess these two loco's are simply building a train in a yard or on a short transfer move. The engineer is on the second unit. ... I believe ... the Roberval Saguenay MLW TR switchers ... ran long hood first ...
Click to expand...

So, while some units may run long-hood first, they're actually running backwards.
 
Pretty well most diesel locomotives built after the first generation of diesels such as the GP9s, were built "short hood" forward with the control stand oriented to handle that situation. CNs original GP9s were numbered in the 1700 series. Atlas made HO scale models of CN GP9s with #1706, #1720, #1729 numbers. More recently Life-Like came out with #1706. These models have dual headlights - one on top of the other which is how they were originally delivered to CN. And, they operated long-hood forward.

Shortly after their delivery, CN renumbered the GP9s and changed the headlights to a single-lens headlight that protruded from the front of the
locomotive.

All locomotives built today, like the AC4400s, ES44ACs and DCs, SD70s, SD90s are built with the engineer looking out the "front" window. I believe that the GP38, GP40, SD40 and others were all built with the "short hood forward" - ie the engineer looking out the window in front of them".

Bob M.
 
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