B5 - Project Centauri Vorchan

[Gandolf50]

Gandolf,

How's everything going? Any new progress on the Vorchan? I've been designing the little purple blocks right behind the "head" and some of the surface features on the fuselage. Trying to figure out a way to make it easy for people to build and line up the blocks. I might have something in a couple of weeks depending on work.

Just wanted to check in and say "hi".

Take care.

Sky Seeker
:tank:

I have not been doing anything for some time, side tracked on other projects, as well as all the stuff Spring Time requires doing!
as far as the Vorchan it looks as if I am going to start from a clean slate and re-start, re-build section by section. Do to the amount of detail I want to include ..I have to at least double the size, which requires a total re-work ( re-compose) of the parts from the wings forward! I also need to create UV data for virtually all the parts as there is none except for the head and wings. Do to the way I will have to re-configure and build ( which should have been done in the first place) I have to select every part and separate and assign a different UV and color so that they can be textured and flattened. Something like this...

just as an example.. another file I was working on in Rhino.. trying various ways to get textures to work with it.
Things are not lost...I don't have to dump everything .. if you remember that cross that was in the views of the SGV files? well that was a flattened 1x1x1 meter cub that was placed next to all the parts to be flattened to maintain and control size via different programs...so most of the stuff is still useable.. just needs to be re-organized and broken down so that the thing can be enlarged and still fit on A4 / Letter size sheets, and instead of moving all those parts to different layers, which started to put a drain on resources when running several programs at the same time.. split them up to different files to control things and memory ( computers and my own)

 

[zathros]

Texturing in Rhino are something that elude me. I can do basic texturing, and if the parts are unrolled, it's kind of easy. I just cannot make sense of the U.V. thing on a Render of the model whole, not flattened. I need a good tutorial on that. Textures are something I really suck at.

 

[spaceagent-9]

In colors like that, looks like a funky space-yellow submarine!

 

[zathros]

There's a nice paper model of the Yellow Submarine, from the Beatles. We have it in our Resource section, it's by Gary Pilsworth.

Link = http://www.zealot.com/resources/yellow-submarine-by-gary-pilsworth.1745/

 

[Gandolf50]

Texturing in Rhino are something that elude me. I can do basic texturing, and if the parts are unrolled, it's kind of easy. I just cannot make sense of the U.V. thing on a Render of the model whole, not flattened. I need a good tutorial on that. Textures are something I really suck at.

Rhino is one of the best and at the same time worst programs to texture with.. I have been working on the beta version and the developers to try and make them see reason and code Rhino 6 "Serengeti" to maintain UV data when you convert from a mesh to a Nurbs object ( poly-mesh) as it is it is destroyed... which defeats the purpose of just about everything I wish to do in the program. Flattening has to be done on a poly-mesh and always works best and produces a smoother result on a quad mesh, but nothing out there will work well with quad meshes, as far as making paper models, they all require triangular meshes. So I have asked the developers to either have Rhino maintain UV data on poly-mesh so when flattened it keeps the texture, OR they develop their squish, squash unroll etc. to work on normal meshes and not have to convert them to meshtonurb!

In colors like that, looks like a funky space-yellow submarine!

I agree! It is a different way for me also, as I have always had the mesh as a single color and added the texture, but now by adding the different color to each part of the mesh and creating a separate UV data for each part makes for more work, but a far better end result, and it is easier to keep things in order. I can now just select a color and I have singled out an individual part to work on!

 

[spaceagent-9]

That's awesome! Another trick copied and pasted to the caverns where my brain usta'd ta be.....!

 

[zathros]

When I do meshes in Rhino, I build them up with curves, and always use a "Straight" Profile Curve. That guarantees unfolding. I never use triangles. Too much trouble with them. When I loft a Hull, I use the "Curve", not "Polyline" command. This smooths the curve out, and it still unfolds. It's amazing how smooth of a render you can get this way. That is how I did this Hull below. It unfolded well. I had to do the texturing/color, after I unfolded it. Thank God the lines and name projected onto the part unfolds with the part if everything is "Grouped" together. These are a few pictures. I did not complete the model as I found out there was one out there already!?!

 

[Gandolf50]

When I do meshes in Rhino, I build them up with curves, and always use a "Straight" Profile Curve. That guarantees unfolding. I never use triangles. Too much trouble with them. When I loft a Hull, I use the "Curve", not "Polyline" command. This smooths the curve out, and it still unfolds. It's amazing how smooth of a render you can get this way. That is how I did this Hull below. It unfolded well. I had to do the texturing/color, after I unfolded it. Thank God the lines and name projected onto the part unfolds with the part if everything is "Grouped" together. These are a few pictures. I did not complete the model as I found out there was one out there already!?!

View attachment 158459

View attachment 158460

That's very true and works ( OK ) with-in rhino... but we are talking of using an imported mesh that was created in Light-wave which is a whole other can-o-worms. All those functions basically vanish and you have to work around with alternatives, that as it stands Rhino just can not do on it's own. If it created TRUE Nurbs objects instead of Poly-Meshes from the imported meshes I don't know what the possibilities would be, as the product to do that is far to expensive RhinoResurf Pro cost 500$ - Educational 200$ and it will resurface an object to a true Nurbs object just as if it was built in Rhino.

As far as texturing after it is unfolded.. if it is simplistic toss some color on it, when it gets highly detailed with lettering panel lines rivets that have to line up, textures that have to align etc. etc. a flatten mesh turns into a nightmare...
Simple Object UV
Simple Object UV and edges and Iso-curves
Simple Object UV Wire
Simple Object UV Wire Selected
Mesh-From Nurb Render
Nurb Unfold Mesh Failure
Unfold works great as all the parts are there ready.. texture is there but Rhino places the complete texture on each and every surface and the UV data is always destroyed! This is a simple part, when thing get more complicated I have NO IDEA what part I am looking at once unfolded and there is NO WAY to paint the unfolded object realistically, or get things lined up. Trouble with all these things is every thing has to have a UV created for either inside rhino as a Nurb or to transfer out side or to import for each and every part! Every nut, bolt, bulge and doodad!

 

[zathros]

This is why I project the lines onto the surface of the objects that outline where I want to Texture. It's the only way I have found to make the colors go where you want, and even Texture some weathering. I am surprised after all these years that the UV set up on Rhino sucks so bad. Truth is, it you know where you want the textures, and project those lines onto the part, then group and unroll the developed surface as a group, that lines will unroll with it, then the lines (curves) can be patched and the surfaces colored that way, and the lines (curves) removed, or not displayed via the display manager. When you make the Text under (Dimensions) highlight then explode it. You can then use the Curves as cutting tools, just group them back together. It changes the nature of the Curves for some reason. You can Extrude those curves to cut out the shape also. Example below. All parts were grouped when unrolled. This shows how the lines can then be used for coloring either in Rhino, or another graphics program. One way of many ways one doing it.

p.s. The letters look solid in the Render, but in Rhino, after you explode a "Text", they turn into and show as lines (Curves), and you can join selected curves segments to color the Joined letters or whatever your working on to make it a solid curve you can "Patch" and color simply, inside of Rhino, or Texture for that matter.

 

[Gandolf50]

This is why I project the lines onto the surface of the objects that outline where I want to Texture. It's the only way I have found to make the colors go where you want, and even Texture some weathering. I am surprised after all these years that the UV set up on Rhino sucks so bad. Truth is, it you know where you want the textures, and project those lines onto the part, then group and unroll the developed surface as a group, that lines will unroll with it, then the lines (curves) can be patched and the surfaces colored that way, and the lines (curves) removed, or not displayed via the display manager. When you make the Text under (Dimensions) highlight then explode it. You can then use the Curves as cutting tools, just group them back together. It changes the nature of the Curves for some reason. You can Extrude those curves to cut out the shape also. Example below. All parts were grouped when unrolled. This shows how the lines can then be used for coloring either in Rhino, or another graphics program. One way of many ways one doing it.

p.s. The letters look solid in the Render, but in Rhino, after you explode a "Text", they turn into and show as lines (Curves), and you can join selected curves segments to color the Joined letters or whatever your working on to make it a solid curve you can "Patch" and color simply, inside of Rhino, or Texture for that matter.

View attachment 158723

reply sent to new thread... http://www.zealot.com/threads/clutter-from-b5-project-vorchan-cut-fold-rhino-uvs-etc.179891/

 

[Gandolf50]

Back to the Vorchan Project after ??? ... but with MORE references to WHAT HOW and I guess some of WHY, but mostly back from the shadows again!

To many projects and to many things to do, along with frustrations with not getting the results I want in this build! Faced with the option to scrap everything and start from a complete rebuild but just not willing to start down that route, I looked into what options I could do in Rhino. I have shown already the results that Rhino produces on this when flattening the head of the Vorchan ( out of the box so to speak ), and you have seen the discussions on Rhino options of curves and sweeps which might not matter or be understood to any but Rhino users. I have spent a lot of time studying and researching Rhino capabilities and plugins and articles and journals on algorithmic geometry like GEOMETRIC UNFOLDING ALGORITHMS and the like to discover why and how I can get Rhino to do what I think it should be able to do. ( My brain hurts ) Anyway good news is I have been working at least for the past few days on the Vorchan again! ( still working on a thousand other things but ...)

Using some of the things I have found and some I have created, I am on a good start. I dumped ALL old files, at least to an OLD file folder, ( never know when you might need to resurrect something!) but here are some results. Not going to go into a lot of the dirty details on the algorithms and math functions. I can stick some of that in the http://www.zealot.com/forums/tools-of-the-trade.374/ forum.

First off I started using Grasshopper in Rhino which in simple terms is a graphical interface to plug in math functions and various routines and apply them to whatever object you have in the works.
looks something like this, and is why i am not going into a lot of details at this time!

So using Grasshopper and another set of plugins called Ivy which will graph and assign values to each segment to your mesh ( it also has some flattening and tab functions built in). I put together a small plugin that add weight to each mesh and unfolds accordingly ( not that simple, think of it as peeling an orange in one piece and SQUISHING the skin flat.

Here is an example original mesh to the right, bottom right is part of the Grasshopper interface, upper left is Rhino version of squish-ing a polymesh ( you have to convert the original using mesh2nurb or you can't flatten anything) and below that is the result of my algorithm which in my opinion is spectacular!!! well maybe way better then converting and squishing and then having to rearrange all the parts as in the Rhino squish ( unrollsrf will give you the exact same results as Squish in Rhino).

There is still a few places that OVERLAP is created and there is nothing that (at this time ) can be done to stop that in the un-roll phase ( researching this I found out that there is no known algorithm that is capable of unfolding without creating overlap unless it is exploded and then the mesh is lined up from here to Tierra Del Fuego! but in my example it is certainly minimized and the unfold can be separated eliminating any overlaps! which I have done in this test print of the full unfold of the vorchan top, from the connection to the belly - neck - top- cutout - down to the nose !

Ta Da !

 

[zathros]

One reason you're having problems is that you trying to flatten to much at one time. When I import a Mesh, I delete every line I don't need. With 10,000 triangles, it can be a pain, but what I do is lock the curves I believe I will need then delete the rest. I end up with the part I need, then it's a matter of connecting the relevant curves, and Running 2 Rails with a single straight curve. Also realizing from the part, which will be separate parts, and which will be one contiguous piece. You have done that in the above pictures but towards the bottom, more separations need to be made and possible a radius piece to connect the two (or more) parts. You will see this when you build it. This can be done all with Rhino, I guess that's why I tend to make my own meshes, hence, I don't release models because they are too much damned work. So I run a forum for everyone else to do it. If I didn't have such a bad Spine (just got out of the hospital again), I would probably be more prolific. I have to put that towards real objects, like my cars, motorhome, tractor, power tools, especially gasoline driven ones, to mess with paper models, which would be what I would prefer to do.

Rant over. The reverse engineering of Rhino is it's strongest feature. Disassembling the Meshes by "Exploding" them, then picking out what you need is laborious, but it gets you there closer, cheaper, and after you have tweaked it, it is now YOUR mesh.

You do fantastic work by the way, some of the best I have ever seen. You dissatisfaction is on a level few will achieve.

 

[zathros]

This was what I posted on post #122 on to a few others. We got to the same place, using quite different techniques. Albeit, probably slightly different outcomes too.

 

[Revell-Fan]

That looks a bit like the little "horns" on the Landram. I took some inspiration from Julius Perdana and how he would make organic flowing shapes. I would reduce the polygon count a bit in order to reduce the cutting lines. You really won't notice a difference if you do it "gently".

 

[zathros]

These are the main parts unfolded. I should have included dark lines, to make them easier to see. I never put them on models, and you never see them if they're not there. The pic below gives some clarification, I always work with half models on things like this. This would be for a bigger model, or for someone who had extreme patience. Top only, no floor, that was easy, didn't put it in this "Render".

 

[Gandolf50]

One reason you're having problems is that you trying to flatten to much at one time. When I import a Mesh, I delete every line I don't need. With 10,000 triangles, it can be a pain, but what I do is lock the curves I believe I will need then delete the rest. I end up with the part I need, then it's a matter of connecting the relevant curves, and Running 2 Rails with a single straight curve. Also realizing from the part, which will be separate parts, and which will be one contiguous piece. You have done that in the above pictures but towards the bottom, more separations need to be made and possible a radius piece to connect the two (or more) parts. You will see this when you build it. This can be done all with Rhino, I guess that's why I tend to make my own meshes, hence, I don't release models because they are too much damned work. So I run a forum for everyone else to do it. If I didn't have such a bad Spine (just got out of the hospital again), I would probably be more prolific. I have to put that towards real objects, like my cars, motorhome, tractor, power tools, especially gasoline driven ones, to mess with paper models, which would be what I would prefer to do.

Rant over. The reverse engineering of Rhino is it's strongest feature. Disassembling the Meshes by "Exploding" them, then picking out what you need is laborious, but it gets you there closer, cheaper, and after you have tweaked it, it is now YOUR mesh.

You do fantastic work by the way, some of the best I have ever seen. You dissatisfaction is on a level few will achieve.

Thanks...Rants are OK in my book... and I get where you are coming from! Problem is If I go in that direction, I end up back where I started from, also, I did not explain the final image as fully as I could have. That was the flattened mesh converted to a poly mesh ( as that is the only way to move stuff around and split it up ) to remove the several small overlaps. The image shows the working view poly mesh which I would then pull back to a meshfromnurb > dupborder and have a single outline of a complete separate top piece to texture in an outside source ( not sure at the moment if I will go that way as with the polylines I have in essence the same thing as you referred to as putting in panel lines or since it is a poly mesh dupborder does all the meshes in effect creating a very nice grid that can be followed in a vector program for texturing) and I don't end up with the hair line parts that would be a nightmare to try and build. This is more like what would be an end result on a final build sheet minus some real texture and a good borderline to follow, and of course this has not been separated to remove overlaps.


I am trying to work forcing Rhino to keep textures and still be able to flatten the object, you may have missed this but the flattening process was on a mesh, not on a poly mesh! Sweep 2 and all that will not work at all with this process, I am making it do some things it ain't supposed to do! Hopefully!

 

[zathros]

No, but if you project the curves, the split them with the borders, and group them, you will have the outlines for the reference of the graphics you need. If you make a "Text', then explode it, Join it, then extrude it, fill in what's missing, the parts will be cut into the surface. These when grouped will unfold, the fact that they are virtual slits matters not as it is virtual, but this gives, again, the reference for Textures, which can then be added to the Unrolled pieces even within Rhino.

I didn't show formers, but you know how easy those are to make by making a copy of the part, then cutting the whole part into segments with a box, deleting the box, and joining the edges of what you wish to be formers. Rudimentary stuff.

 

[Sky Seeker]

Thanks...Rants are OK in my book... and I get where you are coming from! Problem is If I go in that direction, I end up back where I started from, also, I did not explain the final image as fully as I could have. That was the flattened mesh converted to a poly mesh ( as that is the only way to move stuff around and split it up ) to remove the several small overlaps. The image shows the working view poly mesh which I would then pull back to a meshfromnurb > dupborder and have a single outline of a complete separate top piece to texture in an outside source ( not sure at the moment if I will go that way as with the polylines I have in essence the same thing as you referred to as putting in panel lines or since it is a poly mesh dupborder does all the meshes in effect creating a very nice grid that can be followed in a vector program for texturing) and I don't end up with the hair line parts that would be a nightmare to try and build. This is more like what would be an end result on a final build sheet minus some real texture and a good borderline to follow, and of course this has not been separated to remove overlaps.
View attachment 159621

I am trying to work forcing Rhino to keep textures and still be able to flatten the object, you may have missed this but the flattening process was on a mesh, not on a poly mesh! Sweep 2 and all that will not work at all with this process, I am making it do some things it ain't supposed to do! Hopefully!

Gandolf,

It's nice to see someone working on the Vorchan again. I got stuck on some of the surface features of the main fuselage and then life took over. The two items that I had problems with were the nose area where the bottom meets the top. The top side needs to be flatter with the gold side section extending farther forward. The back side was the other area that I had problems with. It seems to need to bow outwards slightly towards the main fuseliage. My version ended up being flat on the back and it didn't look so good.

Like what you've done so far. Keep it up.

Sky Seeker
:tank:

 

[spaceagent-9]

Man, all that hard work! That's a really good compound curve set up. Way to go!

 

[bigpetr]

Great work on your plugin Gandolfo. It gives very usable result compared to smash. But to cut this from paper would be dificult to me. And cuts seem to randome so I am not sure how smooth it will look when assembled. From this standpoint, I would probably prefer Zathros strips solution.

I would personaly do it as plane and boat designers do it (Zathros already demonstrated on a boat hull few post earlier) - I would remodel it: cut it perpendiculary and connect by stright sections, so it unfolds easily:


I understand that you are trying to avoid remodeling the part and work with souce mesh directly.

I am looking forward to see some test build of your unfold part. I hope you proove me wrong.