Wing Commander Tallahassee Cruiser

zathros

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actually I found that the first day you mentioned the paper dope. It's just... everything I've read about it tells me this is most assuredly NOT what I want to use for this. Everything I've read about it talks about it being used to shrink and tighten up Tissue paper. Since the cardboard I'm using is layered, wouldn't that mean it will warp the part since the outer layer(s) of the cardboard would be shrinking while the other layers wouldn't be?

It would be used on the edges only got get rid of the hairs, and make for an edge that could be filed easier. Shellac would work too, I guess. Since your not using tissue paper, you concern is not warranted. This stuff does not delaminate, it tends to brings paper together. If you found it the first day, why didn't you express that instead of your concerns about becoming a "dope head', and "Google' no bringing up anything on "dope". I suggest you buy a bottle and experiment with it. You may find a whole new hobby. This is the only way people here have found out stuff, by trying it out. Usually we share our results.
 
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It would be used on the edges only got get rid of the hairs, and make for an edge that could be filed easier. Shellac would work too, I guess. Since your not using tissue paper, you concern is not warranted. This stuff does not delaminate, it tends to brings paper together. If you found it the first day, why didn't you express that instead of your concerns about becoming a "dope head', and "Google' no bringing up anything on "dope". I suggest you buy a bottle and experiment with it. You may find a whole new hobby. This is the only way people here have found out stuff, by trying it out. Usually we share our results.
I did order a bottle. It hasn't come in yet (michaels doesn't carry it locally), so yeah... until it comes in nothing has actually changed and if someone else chimmed in with other suggestions I didn't want to discourage that hence it seemed like a better idea to not mention I had gotten the dope until... well I had gotten it.
 

Gandolf50

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Dude you can get it at Walmart! and ..like I said..there is NON-Shrinking available! and I went all the way to Heathrow to look for it! ( Just kidding! ) .. You just want to seal the card.. your options are too numerous to write down...!!! Mod-Podge ...CV Glue.. Sanding Sealer/ cut 50/50 with lacquer thinner ... etc etc......Crystal Clear Spray Lacquer, from Walmart does an excellent job, which I use to seal my pages right after printing helps stop them from getting soggy from glue! I/we here can write a book... I was trying to remember some of the threads we discussed this before.. http://www.zealot.com/search/5033583/?q=sealing models&t=post&o=date

Time for us to step back and let you decide which way to go before we drown you with info, as we hijacked the thread into a HOW-Do-I thread ... we should just let you get on with it!
 
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zathros

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You should mention other suggestions, as,
A) it saves people time from saying the same thing, and
B) you may give information that is relevant, or is not.

The reality is that your options are too many to write down. Essentially, anything that will stiffen the edges to allow you to form them will work. Of course, you said you are eventually making this our of styrene, and it you aren't applying the styrene to this model, then I have no idea why you are doing it?
 

zathros

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Because I'm broke and I still want to work on the project.

That, my friend, is the best reason anyone can have, and I can relate to that universal dilemma. I am trying to finagle Insurance money to put a new roof on my house, and it looks like I will be doing it on my own. Work with what you have, that's all you can do. If it gets hard, and you can sand it, it's filler, no matter what it's intended for. ;)
 
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That, my friend, is the best reason anyone can have, and I can relate to that universal dilemma. I am trying to finagle Insurance money to put a new roof on my house, and it looks like I will be doing it on my own. Work with what you have, that's all you can do. If it gets hard, and you can sand it, it's filler, no matter what it's intended for. ;)
well the Eze Dope arrived about 10 minutes ago and I've got a pint of polycrylic so I'm gonna try some expiraments with them and get back to you.
 

Gandolf50

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Sounds like a plan! Broke! That's some-un we can all relate to! Salvage-barter,trade.. I'll shut-it for now and wait for some pix! ;)
 
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So I spent most of yesterday expiramenting. Result are... well not stellar. I got the Eze Dope that did not mention anything about shrinking figuring that was the non-shrinking variety that Danfolf mentioned. Well... apparently that is not the case, as it warped the parts like crazy. So now the question is how do I tell the Dope that shrings paper from the Dope that doesn't?
IMG_0582.JPG

Another problem I encountered, even after 4 hours the pieces were soggy to the touch. The image you're seeing aboce is the end result of leaving it to dry for about 10 hours. So... what did do wrong here? Everything I read said I should be able to apply the Dope with a brush straight to the cardboard and it would be dry in 2 hours. I used a 1/4" Oxe hair brush and literally just painted the Dope on in a single coat.

So I put some thought into it and thought I might have come up with a solution to both problems, though it was going to take a little while to do. So I set everything up so I could try several mixews of Dope and water. I hopepd into photoshop, made an image that looked like the HellCat V5 from Wing Commander 3 and 4, added a note about how much dope and water was in the mixture for that part, printed out the token, slapped 'em on some cardboard and went to work.

I set up a series of 4 mixtue variants, 100% dope, 1:1 dope and water, 1:2 dope and water, 1:3 and 1:4. Then I was going to vary how I applied the mixture: Across the entire part, or just on the edges. So all in all I had 8 expirament. I also set these up a bit differently. Before I jsut used magnets to hold the pieces down... and well 10 hours later and all.

This time I took 2 baking sheets and sandwiched the parts between them using magnets to hold them together. I then used an heat gun to head the sheets to prompt the mixture to dry faster. 2 hours later I popped the magnets off to see the results of my efforts.

And... once again not so stellar. Any of the parts that were treated with a mixture that was more then 50% water just pulled apart with a couple of them adhereing to one of the baking sheets.
IMG_0600.JPG IMG_0602.JPG
the couple that were more then 50% dope... well they didn't seperate into layers and didn't adhere to the pans... but they also didn't sand very well at all. It was a like trying to sand wet sappy pine. It just turns gunky and doesn't produce anything useful.

So... yeah unless someone has some suggestion for something different I can try, I'm just writting the Dope off as a waste of time and effort for this project.

I did come across another possible idea: Mod Podge. Basically all I did was paint a layer of Podge onto a segment of cardboard, sandwiched it between the baking sheets and left it for an hour. The piece came out relatively rigid and sanded moderatly well (provided I sand out from the center). Sanding in any other way produced a sort of waxy build up.

However, a couple hours after I sanded the part, I noticed it was warping not as bad as with the Dope but still notably so. So not writing the Mod Podge off entirely, but there may be a time-factor to consider if I use it.

IMG_0604.JPG


I also did some graphic work and designed some material for the landing bay of the Cruiser. I got a bit ambitious and applied a little fibre optic lighing to the bay. Not intended to be any sort of 'final effort' just more of a "How does this look if I try this?" sort of thing. For a first effort it works out well, though doing this with cardboard is somewhat challenging. I suspect it'll work better when I try it with styrene.
IMG_0605.JPG
 

zathros

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I would have only done the very edge of the paper, the shrinkage may have come to your advantage, in shrinking down the hairs. As far as doing the whole sheet, cereal box paper is something I never use as it just plain sucks, sucks in too much moisture over time, and does not hold shapes well.

Heat is the enemy to most glues, the rapid departure of the moisture does not allow a proper matrix to form, you defeat the purpose by rushing it with heat. Pressure, like sandwiched between two box, as another story. Saran Wrap can be used to protect the books, and the parts won stick to the wrap.

My suggestion was an effort to help you make cleaner edges, which was made moot by your plan to, make it out of styrene, and fill in the gaps with filler, or bondo, as the case may be. ;)
 
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I would have only done the very edge of the paper, the shrinkage may have come to your advantage, in shrinking down the hairs. As far as doing the whole sheet, cereal box paper is something I never use as it just plain sucks, sucks in too much moisture over time, and does not hold shapes well.

Heat is the enemy to most glues, the rapid departure of the moisture does not allow a proper matrix to form, you defeat the purpose by rushing it with heat. Pressure, like sandwiched between two box, as another story. Saran Wrap can be used to protect the books, and the parts won stick to the wrap.

My suggestion was an effort to help you make cleaner edges, which was made moot by your plan to, make it out of styrene, and fill in the gaps with filler, or bondo, as the case may be. ;)
I did try applying it just the edges. Those were the ones that tended to seperate into layers the most.
Then I was going to vary how I applied the mixture: Across the entire part, or just on the edges. So all in all I had 8 expirament.
 

zathros

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You applied it to the edges, didn't put any weight on the edges, especially on poor quality cardboard that is known to delaminate, and are surprised they separated more? I would skip this whole process and just go to styrene, if that is your end goal. Giving you advice on how to work with substandard cardboard is wasteful of everybody's time and effort. I think, hope, you could teach us much about styrene.

The landing bay piece looks really good, by the way. ;)
 
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You applied it to the edges, didn't put any weight on the edges, especially on poor quality cardboard that is known to delaminate, and are surprised they separated more? I would skip this whole process and just go to styrene, if that is your end goal. Giving you advice on how to work with substandard cardboard is wasteful of everybody's time and effort. I think, hope, you could teach us much about styrene.

The landing bay piece looks really good, by the way. ;)
Um... would 3.5 pound pull magnets holding the baking sheets together count as putting weight on the edges? If so then I had about 42 pounds of force applying pressure.

As for the styrene... 2 reasons I haven't started on that.

1- the original plans I started with were designed for a 2" long model. The version I'm working on 24" so there is a fair amount of scaling challanges to address.
- Plus I want to include some items that the original plans just don't have (like the landing bay, running lights, thinking about having lights in the turrets guns etc)

2- I don't have that much styrene in my work shop right now.
 
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Gandolf50

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Non -Shrinking is labeled clearly on the label.. big bold letters.. I just re-read your post..EZ-Dope is WATER BASED!!!! I don't use anything to stop warpage that is water based! it is a contradiction right off the bat! IMO you got to use a lacquer base to speed up dry time and to quick seal the edge.. and THIN COATS!!! MOD PODGE is water based and it will work to seal..but it will warp thing by its water based properties..it also, always feels sticky, since it is a water based acrylic polymer ie plastic emulsion! and thinning beyond 25% destroys almost all acrylic water based products of their ability to stick! That's why they also SELL you acrylic emulsion thinner.
 
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Non -Shrinking is labeled clearly on the label.. big bold letters.. I just re-read your post..EZ-Dope is WATER BASED!!!! I don't use anything to stop warpage that is water based! it is a contradiction right off the bat! IMO you got to use a lacquer base to speed up dry time and to quick seal the edge.. and THIN COATS!!! MOD PODGE is water based and it will work to seal..but it will warp thing by its water based properties..it also, always feels sticky, since it is a water based acrylic polymer ie plastic emulsion! and thinning beyond 25% destroys almost all acrylic water based products of their ability to stick! That's why they also SELL you acrylic emulsion thinner.
So there's 3 types of Dope? Shrinking, non-shrinking and... whatever the one that doesn't say it shrinks the paper but aparently isn't the non-shrinking variety? Also when you say 'thin coats' how do you mean? When I did the edge coat expiramanets I literally just touched the edges with the tip of the paint brush. Is that too much?
 

Gandolf50

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As I was not there.. I have no Idea what went on with your experiment.. but .. if you look at this.. I did this on a single layer of card stock.. and there is not a single hint of warpage.. and trust me airbrushing with home made acrylics thinned down to pass through an airbrush is like spraying pure water! http://www.zealot.com/threads/wont-say-what-it-is-till-later.180161/page-2#post-1021351 .. I build up multiple layers of laminated board all the time and sand to shape, and I use acrylic matte medium to the edges to seal them.. or even a thin layer of watery ELMERS.. but I wipe it with a shop towel and press with weight till dry.

there are far more types than 3.... thin.. means..the least amount as possible in the brush then on the project .... and blend well with the brush.. then a second brush with NO dope on it to smooth the coat and remove excess...

Spray Lacquer !!! Hell if you can't afford the cheap stuff from Walmart .. Crystal Clear by Rustoleum Matte finish just under 4$ a can.. I use for color stuff the Color Place brand for around 2$ Flat finish ... and for a spray lacquer.. get the CHEAPEST LARGEST CAN of HAIRSPRAY THEY MAKE used to be called AQUA-NET, could also be used for GAS-CHAMBER or Killing Cockroaches .. back in High School the Girls Bathroom doors would open and a cloud of the stuff would come pouring out... it is 90% LACQUER!! Used it in ART classes to seal charcoal and chalk drawings and it worked better than the expensive art store stuff they sold!!
 

zathros

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Um... would 3.5 pound pull magnets holding the baking sheets together count as putting weight on the edges? If so then I had about 42 pounds of force applying pressure.

As for the styrene... 2 reasons I haven't started on that.

1- the original plans I started with were designed for a 2" long model. The version I'm working on 24" so there is a fair amount of scaling challanges to address.
- Plus I want to include some items that the original plans just don't have (like the landing bay, running lights, thinking about having lights in the turrets guns etc)

2- I don't have that much styrene in my work shop right now.

I believe Gandolf related the "why's" you had the problems you had. Dope for Tissue/Balsa have to come in varieties or they will warp the model. To make the model stronger, you manually stretch out the paper, let it dry, then apply the dope. If your wings are strong, and you want the tension to add strength, you use the shrinking stuff.

Personally, I won't won't with that kind of cardboard, too flimsy. Too much time invested in something that is sub-par (materials sub-par, not your model). You're tenacious and will persevere. Also, it's "experiments", not "expiramanets". :)