Size Variation for Star Trek

jeffrey b

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Was looking at various blueprints of Star Trek ship on internet and noticed this. On the Excelsior the diameter of the saucer is said to be 237.7 meters but on the Enterprize the diameter is said to be
only 177.9 meters. Am I confused? or miss something. I thought they were the same ship with just a few changes like sub light engines and addons to the main hull for the "B". Also, if a saucer has
a built diameter of 4.25 in. and a listed size of 127 meters does this make the scale 1/1250 or so? Just checking my math to have a base scale to build too.

Thanks Jeffrey B.
 

Revell-Fan

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That is pretty interesting. I have never noticed that. I think those numbers are merely approximations than given numbers because the ship is fictional and has no counterpart in real life which could be used for verification. Personally I would not care about that all that much. If both are an Excelsior class they should be the same size. Maybe the Star Trek pros can shed some light on it? ;)
 
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Awry_Chaos

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The NCC-1701, NCC-1701-A were both Constitution class vessels. The -A was the refit.
The NCC-1701-B was an Excelsior class refit.
The NCC-1701-C was an Ambassador class vessel
The NCC-1701-D was a Galaxy class vessel

it seems that each iteration of the Enterprise is a different class.

When I do the math, I get 127 meters (12700 cm) = 5000 in

5000/4.25 = 1176.4706

So, 1/1250 scale of 127 m would be (5000/1250) 4.00 inches.

For these calculations I am using 1 in = 2.54 cm.

Feel free to recheck my math!
 

jeffrey b

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thank you all. As for the scale problem I feel for Trek ships this small is close enough. Thinking of hanging them from a 9' ceiling.
Again, Thank you all Jeffrey b
 

THE DC

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You rang????!!!!!


Well, this is a political problem resulting in scaling differences and confusion. The politics involved the thoughts of one series group of writers and producers, versus another team's creative differences.

You're not wrong...there is just no right!

When the Excelsior was introduced, as an experimental vessel (NX prefix), it was intended by the writers to be a massive ship, more than twice the size of the Enterprise and to appear to be more advanced. The idea for the writers and director was to give a sense of threat to the viewer, who would see the big ship as a rival and an adversarial presence to the fan's beloved ship, USS Enterprise, NCC-1701. A scene was written where the threat, that this big, super fast ship, should chase down the Enterprise as it attempted to escape capture.

The punchline to the scene was that the ship was sabotaged by another beloved icon, Scotty. It just chugged to a drift, to the sounds of a failing Model T.

And that was the original plan, as it was executed on screen.

The Excelsior continued to serve as a punchline and friendemy in STIV, when the threatening probe approached Earth, and in a short scene , the Excelsior was gearing up to defend the planet, to only get shut down by the probes radiation defenses. Again, as it prepared to launch as the hero-ship, it stalled.

It appeared that the Excelsior was confined to be the ED-209 of the Star Trek movie franchise, when Star Trek the Next Generation started broadcasting episodes. The series needed older ships that looked attractive enough for the series, and advanced enough for the special effects of the day, and chose to use the excellent and easy to film Excelsior filming model. The problem they had was that the craft was very recognizable (Roddenberry had issued an edict before the launch of Next Gen that the 1701/1701-A model not be used during the run of Next Gen.). There was only one exception to this mandate. The Excelsior model solved the problem of not building an expensive filming model, but the ship was huge. The Reliant model was suggested to bee too small and antiquated-looking for the scenes.

The way the Excelsior was conceived originally by the builder and writers of its first appearance, it was that it was longer than the 1701-D. Massive! Looking at the window placement, rear shuttle bay deck height, and other details supported it to be a rival to the new, duck-shaped Enterprise. The writers and staff didn't want another ship on screen that would dwarf a ship that they had made a big deal of in promotions and previous scripts, as massive and SO much bigger than 1701-D. They came up with a solution; retro-shrink it.

In early episodes, the Excelsior is seen traveling near 1701-D, just smaller to make the Big E still look imposing. No screen mention of the size, before or after, cemented this fact; it was just known around the set to writers and production staff. The NCC-1701-D was the biggest Starfleet ship; period!

Interestingly, there was a wall in the 1701-D lounge of previous Enterprises, including an old aircraft carrier, 1701, 1701-A, an Excelsior version (presumably "B"), and a 1701-C version different from what was shown in a later episode. These were all under the 1701-D silhouette shape. I remember when I first saw this display on the set, that the Excelsior version was larger than how it was depicted in the episodes to follow (close to as long than the 1701-D at the top). Since, as I was told, the golden depictions were supposed to be in scale, it was interesting how the size was still not fully reduced in accordance with the writer's intent (someone didn't get the memo); smaller than what ST III inferred but longer and deeper than the televised side-by-side depictions.

Note of interest: The Excelsior silouette on the wall was again different from the depiction of the Enterprise -B in the movie Generations; without the added hull elements to the aft saucer, fore secondary hull, and warp nacelles. Continuity people! Continuity! Actually the differences were due, reportedly, to a fear that the damage to the Excelsior filming model promoted modifications that were required in the script; more true was the desire for the merchandizing gurus to have a different design to sell in the way of models, toys, and such. 20th century merchandizing contract trumped 24th century continuity.

Adding to the confusion of the Excelsior size was that it seemed to return to the STII size in the last old cast movie; STVI. In STVI, there was a secondary shuttle bay in the open aft of the Excelsior secondary, rear hull. If you look closely, two of the large "executive" transport shuttles, used by the TOS-movie cast in the STVI scene where they return to the 1701-A for the mission to escort the Klingon D-7 to a conference, are srored, side-by-side, in that open shuttle bay (they never showed the doors to this bay, on screen, as it looked too cool to show it open and glowing blue). This was a big shuttle, if you note the placement of doors and windows, and the size of these in the movie (ironically, two of the underside grebes that suggest a propulsion mechanism are NCC-1701-D engine nacelles, glued flat to the bottom! These are followed by a Roman War Bird's engine fore section greeble, all re-colored). These two shuttles are dwarfed in the Excelsior shuttle bay, establishing the size to again be massive, returning to the original movie-intended size. From these shuttles, the rear shuttle bay on the fantail would have a more reasonable three to four deck high shuttle bay; not the deck-in-a half, Next Gen reduction.

If the Excelsior was as small as suggested in Next Gen incarnations (relatively speaking, of course), then the after shuttle bay would barely be over a deck in height; too small for the period shuttles. It would also have two windows per deck in some places of the ship, and decks half the normal height (maybe for First Federation crewmen? Binars? -no; too early...).

So you confusion is reasonable because the ship started out more than twice the length of the 1701 refit, then was shrunk in the Next Gen irritations, then returned to super-size in the last old cast movie (ST-VI), then shrunk in the first Next Gen movie (Generations) where is was 30-33 decks deep, given the deck-to-deck on the rear wall display of the Master Situation Station (smaller than the previous movie plans but larger than depicted in the Next Gen series.).

The inconsistency drives many Trekkers crazy and is a source of debate at conventions; at least it did years ago when I was a guest. Recalling the consistency problems of Next Gen production, I tend to favor the STIII size, as it may be massive, but fits the exterior details of windows, docking bays, and other structures better than the smaller sizes suggested later.
 

Awry_Chaos

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You rang????!!!!!


Well, this is a political problem resulting in scaling differences and confusion. The politics involved the thoughts of one series group of writers and producers, versus another team's creative differences.

You're not wrong...there is just no right!

When the Excelsior was introduced, as an experimental vessel (NX prefix), it was intended by the writers to be a massive ship, more than twice the size of the Enterprise and to appear to be more advanced. The idea for the writers and director was to give a sense of threat to the viewer, who would see the big ship as a rival and an adversarial presence to the fan's beloved ship, USS Enterprise, NCC-1701. A scene was written where the threat, that this big, super fast ship, should chase down the Enterprise as it attempted to escape capture.

The punchline to the scene was that the ship was sabotaged by another beloved icon, Scotty. It just chugged to a drift, to the sounds of a failing Model T.

And that was the original plan, as it was executed on screen.

The Excelsior continued to serve as a punchline and friendemy in STIV, when the threatening probe approached Earth, and in a short scene , the Excelsior was gearing up to defend the planet, to only get shut down by the probes radiation defenses. Again, as it prepared to launch as the hero-ship, it stalled.

It appeared that the Excelsior was confined to be the ED-209 of the Star Trek movie franchise, when Star Trek the Next Generation started broadcasting episodes. The series needed older ships that looked attractive enough for the series, and advanced enough for the special effects of the day, and chose to use the excellent and easy to film Excelsior filming model. The problem they had was that the craft was very recognizable (Roddenberry had issued an edict before the launch of Next Gen that the 1701/1701-A model not be used during the run of Next Gen.). There was only one exception to this mandate. The Excelsior model solved the problem of not building an expensive filming model, but the ship was huge. The Reliant model was suggested to bee too small and antiquated-looking for the scenes.

The way the Excelsior was conceived originally by the builder and writers of its first appearance, it was that it was longer than the 1701-D. Massive! Looking at the window placement, rear shuttle bay deck height, and other details supported it to be a rival to the new, duck-shaped Enterprise. The writers and staff didn't want another ship on screen that would dwarf a ship that they had made a big deal of in promotions and previous scripts, as massive and SO much bigger than 1701-D. They came up with a solution; retro-shrink it.

In early episodes, the Excelsior is seen traveling near 1701-D, just smaller to make the Big E still look imposing. No screen mention of the size, before or after, cemented this fact; it was just known around the set to writers and production staff. The NCC-1701-D was the biggest Starfleet ship; period!

Interestingly, there was a wall in the 1701-D lounge of previous Enterprises, including an old aircraft carrier, 1701, 1701-A, an Excelsior version (presumably "B"), and a 1701-C version different from what was shown in a later episode. These were all under the 1701-D silhouette shape. I remember when I first saw this display on the set, that the Excelsior version was larger than how it was depicted in the episodes to follow (close to as long than the 1701-D at the top). Since, as I was told, the golden depictions were supposed to be in scale, it was interesting how the size was still not fully reduced in accordance with the writer's intent (someone didn't get the memo); smaller than what ST III inferred but longer and deeper than the televised side-by-side depictions.

Note of interest: The Excelsior silouette on the wall was again different from the depiction of the Enterprise -B in the movie Generations; without the added hull elements to the aft saucer, fore secondary hull, and warp nacelles. Continuity people! Continuity! Actually the differences were due, reportedly, to a fear that the damage to the Excelsior filming model promoted modifications that were required in the script; more true was the desire for the merchandizing gurus to have a different design to sell in the way of models, toys, and such. 20th century merchandizing contract trumped 24th century continuity.

Adding to the confusion of the Excelsior size was that it seemed to return to the STII size in the last old cast movie; STVI. In STVI, there was a secondary shuttle bay in the open aft of the Excelsior secondary, rear hull. If you look closely, two of the large "executive" transport shuttles, used by the TOS-movie cast in the STVI scene where they return to the 1701-A for the mission to escort the Klingon D-7 to a conference, are srored, side-by-side, in that open shuttle bay (they never showed the doors to this bay, on screen, as it looked too cool to show it open and glowing blue). This was a big shuttle, if you note the placement of doors and windows, and the size of these in the movie (ironically, two of the underside grebes that suggest a propulsion mechanism are NCC-1701-D engine nacelles, glued flat to the bottom! These are followed by a Roman War Bird's engine fore section greeble, all re-colored). These two shuttles are dwarfed in the Excelsior shuttle bay, establishing the size to again be massive, returning to the original movie-intended size. From these shuttles, the rear shuttle bay on the fantail would have a more reasonable three to four deck high shuttle bay; not the deck-in-a half, Next Gen reduction.

If the Excelsior was as small as suggested in Next Gen incarnations (relatively speaking, of course), then the after shuttle bay would barely be over a deck in height; too small for the period shuttles. It would also have two windows per deck in some places of the ship, and decks half the normal height (maybe for First Federation crewmen? Binars? -no; too early...).

So you confusion is reasonable because the ship started out more than twice the length of the 1701 refit, then was shrunk in the Next Gen irritations, then returned to super-size in the last old cast movie (ST-VI), then shrunk in the first Next Gen movie (Generations) where is was 30-33 decks deep, given the deck-to-deck on the rear wall display of the Master Situation Station (smaller than the previous movie plans but larger than depicted in the Next Gen series.).

The inconsistency drives many Trekkers crazy and is a source of debate at conventions; at least it did years ago when I was a guest. Recalling the consistency problems of Next Gen production, I tend to favor the STIII size, as it may be massive, but fits the exterior details of windows, docking bays, and other structures better than the smaller sizes suggested later.
Fascinating piece of information! Good fan trivia. Thanks for sharing!
 

THE DC

Highly Esteemed Member
I had always assumed the discrepancy in the sizes of the Excelsior class was that it was like the Klingon bird of prey, same design across multiple sizes.
And each size was a sub-class.




That's another good story.

ILM was hired for STIII. There were not many FX studios capable of the job during that time. Lucas Studios also cooperated with the film to introduce their new sound system for debate, as part of the FX deal, making STIII the first movie to promote and use THX sound quality in theaters. I remember the construction of the speaker systems by LucasFilm, back then, in old, classically designed theaters. The one I saw the movie in, during the test trial, had a balcony and the sound rising from below was a different and difficult to describe experience.

The script in STII called for a small, 12 man scout size vessel, a bit larger than a shuttle, which is the way it was initially scaled. Unfortunately, the ILM department was not very invested in continuity, having cut their teeth on the guidance of "does it look good" that George Lucas drove. No offense to Star Wars fans, but Lucas has openly stated that detail and scientific accuracy is not of interest to him; he wants to create emotion. Now, Nimoy wanted more accuracy in scale depiction, expecting it to land on Vulcan for the climax, but the optical directors wanted it to not look too small and weak to threaten the Enterprise 1701, during that battle scene. To be blunt; they screwed up and Nimoy missed it. As a photographer himself, the visuals were powerful to him and his artistic excitement blocked his critical vision.

The scale changed at least 3 times in that movie; the landing scene on Vulcan, the face off with 1701 before, and then the close flyover of the Merchantman ship at the beginning of the movie. In the last scene, it was scaled twice the size of 1701!

After the movie, Nimoy and Bennet experienced considerable criticism for the sloppy continuity. Trek fans are notoriously well educated and require accuracy, continuity, and believability to satisfy their suspension of disbelief. They expressed what they saw as sloppy writing and production rather vocally. This critique impacted Harve Bennet, who had cut his teeth on the Six Million Dollar Man, a show where a man with a bionic arm lifted things that would have ripped the muscular tissue and spine right from his back, on a weekly basis!

There was nothing to do about it by then. These were the days before Lucas reshoots; what was in the can was it! Fini!

A few years later, the Next Gen series, again wanting to save money, chose to use the BoP filming model. It was a beautiful, highly detailed piece. Since they needed the adversaries in that episode to appear a threat to NCC-1701-D, the scale was enlarged on screen to be similar, if slightly smaller than the Enterprise-D; a ship twice the deck count of the NCC-1701. In a follow-up appearance, in another episode, they made a couple of models used appear to suggest an even larger version, as big as 1701-D.

As these movie scenes and episodes were produced, a company named FASA was producing an excellent roleplaying game (I'm biased, having worked with them!). Part of the power of their material was sourcing series and movie experts, and using images from produced canon material, to satisfy the technically sophisticated, detail-oriented customers that were more challenging to satisfy than their other product line fans; Dr. Who, Shadowrun, and BattleTech. They took the brunt of these frustrations of ever changing sizes of the BoP and created a solution they printed in their Klingon Recognition Ship book. They suggested that the Klingons loved the design of the ship that they had stolen from the Romulans so much, that they not only developed their own scout-sized version, but then produced a cruiser sized and a frigate sized (frigates in Star Trek were larger than cruisers). The solution soon became common assumption amongst fandom (though it really never addressed the continuity issue of the stolen BoP in STIII!). Today the suggested multiple sizes is unquestioned; it just been accepted as if canon-approved.

So a big, sloppy continuity mess created in a mid-cycle movie, under a first-time director, was resolved by a company that was often considered the red-headed step child of Paramount Merchandising! The hoot of that was that the relationship between Paramount and the Next Gen producers was very unkind to the FASA editors and production team. There was even open hostility toward FASA licensing. Paramount never understood the publicity value of that little RPG...
 

THE DC

Highly Esteemed Member
By the way, though I am not picking too much upon DS-9 (I liked it), if your really want to see size scaling problems, check out the Defiant. Designed to be a large runabout, raised to four decks, referred to in scripts as five decks, and swaps scale frequently as runabout-sized when next to Cardassian ships and the Excelsior...


See, I brought it back to the initial query! Full circle!