Leasing and Trackage Rights
- Thread starter 2-8-2
- Start date
RE: Interchange traffic.
There are a lot of things flying around in this thread that I don't fully understand. That's why I originally posted this in the Operations forum in the first place, to hopefully learn more about how things work. But before this goes any further, I do want to address interchange traffic.
I agree with Larry. Interchange traffic is a HUGE part of rail business, especially so for smaller railroads. Let's use the W&N as an example:
Wolf Run Mining Co. requires rail service to a port, and contracts with the W&N because of it's 3 Lake Erie connections. Wolf Run is a coal mine, and in the business of selling their product, coal. If they get a new customer, let's say XYZ Power...a power plant in Chicago...how would they move their product to the customer? The first place they are going to look is their existing rail service, the W&N. But how will the W&N move coal to Chicago, when their rails don't go there? Interchange.
Railroads are a service industry. They must provide solutions and solve shipping problems. Therefore, the more connections they have to other railroads, the better. The industries served do not care how many other on-line industries there are, they only want to know how effectively, quickly, (and cheaply) their product can be moved, and how far. This is also why intermodal options are such a big factor.
There are a lot of things flying around in this thread that I don't fully understand. That's why I originally posted this in the Operations forum in the first place, to hopefully learn more about how things work. But before this goes any further, I do want to address interchange traffic.
I agree with Larry. Interchange traffic is a HUGE part of rail business, especially so for smaller railroads. Let's use the W&N as an example:
Wolf Run Mining Co. requires rail service to a port, and contracts with the W&N because of it's 3 Lake Erie connections. Wolf Run is a coal mine, and in the business of selling their product, coal. If they get a new customer, let's say XYZ Power...a power plant in Chicago...how would they move their product to the customer? The first place they are going to look is their existing rail service, the W&N. But how will the W&N move coal to Chicago, when their rails don't go there? Interchange.
Railroads are a service industry. They must provide solutions and solve shipping problems. Therefore, the more connections they have to other railroads, the better. The industries served do not care how many other on-line industries there are, they only want to know how effectively, quickly, (and cheaply) their product can be moved, and how far. This is also why intermodal options are such a big factor.
Can you explain how it differs?kitsune said:
Can you explain this as well? In your example, the NKP has no mainline to Wheeling. The only way it could get there is over W&LE rails, so how would they be able to choose pure NKP routing?kitsune said:
Also, what is a captive shipper?
Yes, the lines (self described "Coal Belt") around Stuebenville are mostly for serving coal mines. I see your point about the lines west of Cleveland. I could cut everything off at the branch at Akron, and still have a presence with just coal. But I think those lines only make my railroad stronger.kitsune said:
There are a few things about my railroad that have been required from the start:
- Relations with NKP. I've always liked NKP, and dang it...it's my railroad! Lima, OH isn't that far from me, and there's a lot of rail history there.
- Connection to DT&I. Long before those ugly CSX trains came rolling through my town, those rails belonged to DT&I. I still remember the orange engines from my childhood, and I wanted to replicate some of it on my layout.
- A freelanced road. The "what if". This thread has generated a lot of responses, and it's all about a railroad that didn't exist. That's pretty cool I think.
AC,I'll bet he has a lot of interchange traffic to other railroads in order to move those 90,000 carloads a year..
I have studied the railroad plant for over 50 years..I worked as a brakemen for 9 1/2 years..I come from a family of railroaders dating back to 1885...
Did you know in order to interchange cars the railroads had to agree first on a common track width.That's basic knowledge and should tell us that interchange of cars dates back to the early years of railroading and has continue to this day.
Again,the W&N has a solid customer base far better then my Huron River.
See below
Huron:
Continental Grain.
Lakeside Frozen Foods.
Ohio Steel Drums.
Huron Lumber
River Terminal Inc.
=========
Oberlin
Oberlin Grain
Reed's Scrap Metals
=========
Grafton
Carrs BP Oil Distribution
General Foods
Carr's Warehousing & Distribution
===========
Medina
Agrow Fresh Produce
SugarDale Foods.
Rittman Steel Tubes
86 Lumber
--------------------
Paxton
Paxton Fuel & Oils
North Star Co-op.
Carter Lumber
=========
Barberton
Barberton Sheet Metals
Wilson Cement Products
Bond home Improvement
DFI Chemicals
Dad's Treats Dog Food Inc
Welby Inc.
Nexus Distribution
Superior Cardboards
Patton's Warehousing.
Saxton Scrap Iron
===========
Commodities haul: Gain,Food stuffs, meats, whey,sugar,corn syrup,corn starch,steel,scrap,plastic pellets,scrap rubber,lumber,roofing,cardboard stock chemicals and other Commodities..
Total of cars handle yearly: 14,400 cars
The HR is based on a REAL short line.
I have studied the railroad plant for over 50 years..I worked as a brakemen for 9 1/2 years..I come from a family of railroaders dating back to 1885...
Did you know in order to interchange cars the railroads had to agree first on a common track width.That's basic knowledge and should tell us that interchange of cars dates back to the early years of railroading and has continue to this day.
Again,the W&N has a solid customer base far better then my Huron River.
See below
Huron:
Continental Grain.
Lakeside Frozen Foods.
Ohio Steel Drums.
Huron Lumber
River Terminal Inc.
=========
Oberlin
Oberlin Grain
Reed's Scrap Metals
=========
Grafton
Carrs BP Oil Distribution
General Foods
Carr's Warehousing & Distribution
===========
Medina
Agrow Fresh Produce
SugarDale Foods.
Rittman Steel Tubes
86 Lumber
--------------------
Paxton
Paxton Fuel & Oils
North Star Co-op.
Carter Lumber
=========
Barberton
Barberton Sheet Metals
Wilson Cement Products
Bond home Improvement
DFI Chemicals
Dad's Treats Dog Food Inc
Welby Inc.
Nexus Distribution
Superior Cardboards
Patton's Warehousing.
Saxton Scrap Iron
===========
Commodities haul: Gain,Food stuffs, meats, whey,sugar,corn syrup,corn starch,steel,scrap,plastic pellets,scrap rubber,lumber,roofing,cardboard stock chemicals and other Commodities..
Total of cars handle yearly: 14,400 cars
The HR is based on a REAL short line.
2-8-2,A captive shipper can not send its goods by any other railroad or by truck.So this company must depend on the railroad that serves it.Examples would be chemical plants,coke plant-coal in coke out and other like industry.As many railroads has found out over the years the companies that can send their goods by rail or truck is NOT a captive shipper and it is these shippers that the railroads "wine and dine" to keep.
Now if a company only handles 3-5 cars a month the larger railroads could care less-EXCEPT for short lines that wants every car load it can get and actively seeks customers of all sizes this is how a short line operator turns a marginal rail line into a money maker..Of course sadly there are some short lines that has cease operations because the lack of business or its main shipper closed.My Huron River is a modern short line that took over a older branch line with few customers..The majority of the cars handle a year goes to Continental Grain and River Terminal Inc These 2 account for 51% of the yearly car loads.
As far as the "pure" NKP routing that would have happen AFTER the NKP/W&LE deal before that then it would be WLE NKP routing.
As far as the "Alphabet Route" here is the facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Route
As you compare maps you will see your W&N is in a strong position because you serve towns and Cities these railroads did not.
Heres the straight on the Wheeling &Lake Erie which DID NOT go to directly Wheeling it used a indirect connection instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeling_and_Lake_Erie_Railway
http://www.scripophily.net/whandlaerrac.html
Edit: There is another short line in that area..That was the Akron,Canton & Youngstown..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akron,_Canton_and_Youngstown_Railroad
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy.html
Map
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy-map.gif
As you can see it also went west and had several connections..
Now if a company only handles 3-5 cars a month the larger railroads could care less-EXCEPT for short lines that wants every car load it can get and actively seeks customers of all sizes this is how a short line operator turns a marginal rail line into a money maker..Of course sadly there are some short lines that has cease operations because the lack of business or its main shipper closed.My Huron River is a modern short line that took over a older branch line with few customers..The majority of the cars handle a year goes to Continental Grain and River Terminal Inc These 2 account for 51% of the yearly car loads.
As far as the "pure" NKP routing that would have happen AFTER the NKP/W&LE deal before that then it would be WLE NKP routing.
As far as the "Alphabet Route" here is the facts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alphabet_Route
As you compare maps you will see your W&N is in a strong position because you serve towns and Cities these railroads did not.
Heres the straight on the Wheeling &Lake Erie which DID NOT go to directly Wheeling it used a indirect connection instead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheeling_and_Lake_Erie_Railway
http://www.scripophily.net/whandlaerrac.html
Edit: There is another short line in that area..That was the Akron,Canton & Youngstown..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akron,_Canton_and_Youngstown_Railroad
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy.html
Map
http://www.rr-fallenflags.org/acy/acy-map.gif
As you can see it also went west and had several connections..
brakie said:
Am I reading that wrong? Or are you saying that my railroad would have that kind of volume? If so, how did you come to that number?
In creating a new story/timeline for this new railroad, I decided to incorporate the W&N. At some point in its history, the former W&N merged with this new company to form XX Railroad Co...whatever I end up naming it.
The tracks between Norwalk and Freemont are owned by NKP and NYC, and is the only part of my route where trackage rights come into play. Since the NKP was part of the Alphabet Route, that section of track is part of the coalition. The Alphabet Route continues from there on W&LE tracks into Wheeling. It could be argued that the coalition might have elected to use my rails instead. The route is roughly the same, though I think mine is more direct. At the very least, had my railroad been a part of all this, it could offer an alternate route to Wheeling. I don't like the idea of altering history too much.
I'm happy with the new direction I'm taking with my railroad. I feel like it has a real purpose now, even though it's no longer just a shortline. I'm convinced that had it existed, it would have thrived...or at least given the larger roads a run for their money in this neck of the woods. When writing the new history, I'll have to be sure my lines were here before the others. I think it would make more sense that way.
The Coal Belt region probably would've been the first to lay tracks, probably a few small mining towns looking to connect to the Ohio River for supplies around the mid-1800's. It would've been gobbled up by a small upstart railroad, probably from Akron, and then extended north to Cleveland. The Wauseon & Norwalk merger would then make sense, as it would've been a struggling shortline with a couple lake connections, looking for a way to compete with the bigger roads.
That said, I think I can wrap up this thread. I learned a lot in these 4 pages, thanks to those who contributed!
The tracks between Norwalk and Freemont are owned by NKP and NYC, and is the only part of my route where trackage rights come into play. Since the NKP was part of the Alphabet Route, that section of track is part of the coalition. The Alphabet Route continues from there on W&LE tracks into Wheeling. It could be argued that the coalition might have elected to use my rails instead. The route is roughly the same, though I think mine is more direct. At the very least, had my railroad been a part of all this, it could offer an alternate route to Wheeling. I don't like the idea of altering history too much.
I'm happy with the new direction I'm taking with my railroad. I feel like it has a real purpose now, even though it's no longer just a shortline. I'm convinced that had it existed, it would have thrived...or at least given the larger roads a run for their money in this neck of the woods. When writing the new history, I'll have to be sure my lines were here before the others. I think it would make more sense that way.
The Coal Belt region probably would've been the first to lay tracks, probably a few small mining towns looking to connect to the Ohio River for supplies around the mid-1800's. It would've been gobbled up by a small upstart railroad, probably from Akron, and then extended north to Cleveland. The Wauseon & Norwalk merger would then make sense, as it would've been a struggling shortline with a couple lake connections, looking for a way to compete with the bigger roads.
That said, I think I can wrap up this thread. I learned a lot in these 4 pages, thanks to those who contributed!
brakie said:
Great! Then my work here is done.
I still want to make a few tweaks, but for the most part, that's it. I did use some actual events to tie my road into history a bit. For example, Jay Gould was approached to buy the Nickel Plate, and he was short on capital...I just threw in a reason why. Hehe.