To Build A Ship: HMS Cleopatra

Discussion in 'Ship & Watercraft Models' started by larrymax, Mar 14, 2004.

  1. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Captains Log
    Saturday, February 7 2004

    Good Evening ladies and gentlemen of the Jury. Tonight we reach a small milestone. The cannon of the Gun Deck are completed and installed (that is, the whole cannons....the false barrels remain to be installed). All in all I'm pretty happy with the outcome. Seems like I've been building cannon forever! Nice to see them installed. Cleopatra's finally starting to look like a ship of war!

    [​IMG]

    ...and here's a little closer view:

    [​IMG]

    Also, I made it to the hobby shop this afternoon and picked up some small blocks and belay pins! I REFUSE to spend 40 hours building blocks!

    Sincerely,
    Max
    Captain, HMS Cleopatra (WITH GUNS!)
    Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
  2. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Captains Log
    Sunday, February 8, 2004 10:40pm California Time

    Late....tired....must sleep! Must post pictures first.....

    Gun deck details. Not sure what they are...one's around the base of the main mast....

    [​IMG]

    the others.....not....

    [​IMG]



    Must sleep now!

    Max
    Capppttt .....zzzzzzzzzz!
  3. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Posted Tuesday, Feb 10, 2004

    Good Morning All,

    Just a little update. Last night I got the three transome supports built. Nothing too unusual about them. The most difficult thing was to make sure the angles of the parts that attach to the hull sides was correct. I tried to trim them at a "close to it" angle when cutting the illustration board core for the parts out, but they required sanding to match up correctly, both to the bulwark and to the transome.

    [​IMG]

    I also got the main piece of a long pole that sits on the fore deck and hangs over the port rail. Not sure what it's for...the photos don't give much information on them. The overhanging part is close to the head of the anchor head, so maybe it helps support the anchor. No pics of the area yet....I'll get some up tonight. Maybe Jim or Admiral Hunt will know what it is. Also seems there's more detail to it (from the photos) than what's provided for in the kit....I'll have to see what's up.

    Have A Great Day
    Max
    Captain, HMS Cleopatra
    Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic
  4. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally posted by Cadwal
    Tue Feb 10, 2004 6:20 pm

    larrymax wrote:
    Captains Log
    Sunday, February 8, 2004 10:40pm California Time

    Gun deck details. Not sure what they are...one's around the base of the main mast....the others.....not....



    That's were the "interior" parts of the standing riggning are attached to the deck (on other models at least).

    Like that gray thing you have on the railing in one of the pictures. (Those black dots are holes right ?)
  5. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted: Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:59 am


    Thanks Cadwel! and, yes, those are holes for the belay pins. I purchased 3 packs of small wooden pins, but after looking at them with the model, they are STILL too big, so, either I make my own from scratch, or, I try to modify the ones I bought. More on THAT little drama later.

    Tonight, before I get started working on Cleo, I thought I'd post a few pics of that beam I was talking about this morning. Theses are scans from the photos of the model on the inside cover of the kit/booklet. You can see the beam laying across the foredeck and hanging over the port side. It appears to have some sort of details on it (one particularly noticeble "handle"? in one pic). Here are the shots:

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    If anyone can identify what this part is, or what it was used for, or what the other details on it might be, I would be eternally grateful!

    Thanks,
    Max
    Captain, HMS Cleopatra
    Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic

    P.S. I'll post some pics of tonights progress a little later.
  6. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Maurice
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:16 am

    For some reason they've lashed a square spare spar (!!!) across the focsle and used it to hang a greatly oversize spare anchor.
    I wonder why.
    It's as necessary as a spare road wheel would be on the back of the transom. :D
    But on the pics I haven't got it's on the starboard side of the ship - oh - and - er - how do I put this tactfully - er - I don't think I can - er - I see it is on your's too.

    Maurice
  7. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted: Wed, Feb 11, 2004 6:23am

    Well Maurice, now THAT'S embarrassing! No, your OTHER STARBORD!!! hehehe! My bad

    OK....I have 1 Spare Spar! Should I make it round? Any other opinions?

    Max
  8. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally posted by Maurice
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:35am

    >>>Any other opinions?<<<

    What, me, hold opinions - never.
    Ships carried both finished round spars ready for jury rigging and baulks of timber for the carpenter to use as needed.
    Your call.

    Maurice
  9. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Peter H
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:46 am Post subject:

    My opinion is you can only make it round if you can say "spare square spar" five times very quickly.

    There was probably a book running "below" on who would trip over it.


    Peter H
  10. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Good Evening Everyone.

    Captains Log
    Tuesday, February 10, 2004

    This evening I added the Forecastle Rail and the decorative strips down to about mid hull.


    [​IMG]



    The rails were pretty straight forward. An upper and lower part, trimmed out and glued together. The parts in the kit comes a rather pale grey color. I've decided to make them black, as they appear that way in the photos and also because it looks better with the black hull stripe. The small white squares are where some "bits" will be attached. Between two of the bits on each side is a cradle for the "spare spar?" to rest in. The cradle's cut out is square, so I expect I'll be leaving this beam square so it fits properly in it's cradle. Before I could add the cradle, I had to add the rail, and before I could add the rail, I had to add the decorative freize. So, once again, in order to move one step forward, I had to move two steps back. Actually, I've been holding off attaching the rails (sequentially, they should have been added a while ago) in order to avoid mucking them up from too much handling. They overhang the bulwarks by about 1/8" inboard and outboard and I'm sort of clumsy and forget about being very "ginger" with handling the hull! (as far as that goes, I should have DEFINETELY left the ships wheel off for quite a while longer!)

    Well, it's getting late, so I'll be off for the evening. Thanks for the input on that "beam". If anyone has a picture of what that thing should actually look like......!!

    Good Night
    Max
    Captain, HMS Cleoparta
    Paper Navy of the Bear Flag Republic[/img]
  11. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Jimkrauzlis
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 4:57

    Looking great (as usual), Max!

    That "extra spar" is, I believe, what is called a "fish davit", used to handle the spare anchor from a position aft of the catsheads. It is removable from one side to another as needed, thus the handle and the way it is rigged on the forecastle.

    I would follow the photo faithfully, however, as I don't think you want it to be rounded like a "spare spar" might be, as the square shape helped keep it from rolling unexpectedly across the top of the rail when in use.

    There should also be what is called a "spanshackle"", one on each side offset a bit from midships, into which the fish davit is lead as an anchor of sorts during use. In other words, the fish davit is slung athwart the forecastle in the forward chain area, extending over the rail and being rigged to handle the spare anchor, while the inboard end is run through the spanshackle just a bit inside of midships as an anchor or securing point, thus taking advantage of what is essentially a lever arm set up, providing the strength to the davit to "fish" the spare anchor; you will note the spare anchor on the starboard (not the "other starboard" side) is rigged to the end of the fish davit.

    The spanshackle is not clearly shown in the photos, however, but if you look carefully at the top and middle photos you posted you can see the un-used spanshackle on the deck just below the fish davit, and the bottom photo seems to show the portside spanshackle being used on the fish davit which is rigged to handle the starboard side spare anchor. Whew!

    Just hope that was clear enough to sound believeable. :D

    Keep dem updates coming, Max!

    Jim
    Copiague
    Long Island
    New York
  12. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Maurice
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 6:01 pm

    Jim

    Thanks most interesting, I didn't now about that before.
    Hopefully Max can now upload scans of the first pic on the inside cover and the diagram of the focsle area. (I can't - no scanner at present - er - I mean no copy of the kit)
    There's still a problem with relative sizes of the anchors.
    The pic shows the spare as much larger than the two "in use" but the parts provide for 2 large and one slightly smaller.

    Maurice
  13. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Jimkrauzulis
    Wed Feb 11, 2004 11:03 pm

    Maurice, to WHAT parts page are your referring? :D

    I agree the spare anchor was smaller that the two bowers and perhaps the anchor parts used should be changed to reflect that. Normally the best anchor was stowed on the port side, the second on the starboard and the spares, etc., elsewhere, one popular place being at the forechains with this fish davit setup.

    These are just my random, arbitrary thoughts, mind you, so take that with a grain of salt. :?
    Jim
    Copiague
    Long Island
    New York
  14. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Maurice
    Thu Feb 12, 2004 9:10 am

    Jim

    The page I heard a rumour about. 8)
    Maurice
  15. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Maurice
    Fri Feb 13, 2004 2:54 pm

    Max

    No one's more relieved than I am that Jim knows what he's talking about.
    But hey you're the one doing all the work, and doing it magnificently.

    About that so far unidentified bit abaft the galley chimney and the focsle break. Could that be the ship's belfry? You know, where they hung the ship's bell and presumably any bats currently embarked.

    Further reading - the Leda class was a bit later than Cleo but
    http://www.hms-trincomalee.co.uk/
    is interesting.
    (Those Brits have been renovating everything like mad since I left.)

    Maurice
  16. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Jimkrauzlis
    Fri Feb 13, 2004 4:17 pm

    No one's more relieved than I that Max is tackling this project before I muddle up my own! :D

    I was wondering, Max, (uh oh, trying to think again :shock: ) I gather as you go along you are deviating a bit from the kit instruction sequence. I was wondering if you had any thoughts about whether you found their suggested progression to present any potential pitfalls based on your experience so far. Based on my own experience in wooden ship building, there are some things you try to avoid doing too early (like the installation of some cannon and fittings lest they get banged up a bit during construction).

    You mentioned the ship's wheel as a possible problem if installed early, though it seems you are doing quite well, thank you very much. And you haven't installed the gun deck cannon yet for fear of their getting knocked around a bit. Are there any other items you have come across that you would have installed later (or earlier) that comes to mind?

    I can't tell from the photos of the forecastle deck of your model, but I believe Maurice is right to note there is a belfry abaft the fore hatch, right along the edge of the after forecastle deck, at least that's what your earlier photos of the completed model suggest. I didn't see any placement markers on the deck piece that was evident from your photos, but there also seem to be fife rails on each side of the belfry; is that what the kit plans suggest (not having the kit itself to check, of course)

    I hope you don't mind so many questions, Max, I don't mean to distract you from your labor of love, of course, but, jeez, I'm just a pest, it's just that simple.

    As always, she's looking betterer and betterer with each post!
    Guess I better get back to work now....
    Jim
  17. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Barry
    Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:48 pm

    liked the trincomalee site maurice did not know it even existed good history lesson this thread.

    barry
  18. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted: Sat Feb 14, 2004 12:18 am
    Post subject: Thoughts and Digressions on Parts and Progressions

    Happy to answer your questions Jim and Maurice.

    First Point: The Bellfry. I have already assembled the Belfry. It's living quit safely in a little plastic cup waiting to be glued to it's permanent home,. It sort of looks like a little Pagota, and yes, Jim, it does go on the edge of the Forcastle Deck, and it is bookended by fife rails. There are no "glueing location markers" as there are for the rail posts, but I don't see a problem in placement.....fortunately, there's a nice center line created by the deck planking lines that I can use for reference. There is one teensy-weensy problem with the bellfry, though....They seem to have neglected to give me a BELL! Rats! Oh well, looks like I get to make my own! Now, anyone know how you make a tiny little forge????!!!! :roll: Which leads to Gills thoughts on that odd piece at the foot of the Forecastle drop, which is definitely NOT the belfry! There are no pins called out for it, so it's not a fife rail, no rigging lines leading to it, as a matter of fact there is no other reference to it whatsoever, except for the fact that "there it is!" Being that it is placed directly in front of the doors leading into the space under the fore deck, I can imagine a lot of very sore sailors as they came running out of the area an smack into it! Maybe they used it as a booster step to get up to the fore deck? Maybe they used it as a Breakfast Bar? Who knows!!?? The search for the answer to this mystery continues ...!

    Second Point: Assembling Parts Out of Sequence. Jim, as for your comment about the ships wheel...the reason I mentioned that you should DEFINITELY consider MUCH LATER attachment of this assembly is that I have already hit it twice and knocked off 2 handles in the process!!! Admittedly, it was pretty easy to fix, but the point remains, it requires so much brain strain to remember to whatch how I'm grabbing and moving the ship around, that it would just be easier if it weren't attached yet. There's really no need for it to be there until almost the end of the entire model....except that it LOOKS really cool when you look down the deck line!! :D . Other things, so far out of sequence? Beside the cannon, not really too much. I've just tried to avoid adding small fragile parts (like the bellfry) for as long as I can to avoid the aforementioned damage. The sequence of the numbering seems to be pretty good as far as the overall assembly plan goes. There are a number of "sub-assemblies" illustrated on other pages of diagrams, but they kind of take care of themselves in the "attaching" sequence by just following the main diagram. The other things I've done out of sequence have been noted earlier in the thread...false cannon wells, cannon under the overhaning aft deck, etc.

    Well guys (and gals...by the by, if there are any ladies out there reading along, please say "howdy". Just my curiosity to see if there are any lady ship builders out there...this hobby, and this genre of this hobby seems to be pretty gender specific! Specifically, male! :cry: ) that is quite enough rambling from me....I'd much rather just build my Cleo and post pics and let the work do the talking! (I'm pretty sure most of YOU would rather I did that too! hehehe!)

    Checking out for this afternoon.
    Happy Valentines Day
    Max
    Captain...yadda, yadda, yadda
  19. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Maurice
    Sat Feb 14, 2004 2:53 am

    Max

    Well it's in the right place to be the breakfast bar as the galley and stove are just forward, but it aint. It's a riding bitt. The posts are substantial, passing down to the orlop deck. You'll need to chamfer the corners carefully so that the anchor cables don't chafe whilst you're riding at anchor. Sorry about the time lag, the synchromesh seems to be wearing and the brain is now a bit slow getting into gear. (ok,ok - even slower)

    Don't suppose they provided any bats either.

    Maurice
  20. larrymax

    larrymax Member

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    Originally Posted by Peter H.
    Sat Feb 14, 2004 4:20 am

    "ORLOP"
    Middle English overlop, floor covering a ship's hold, from Middle Low German overl?p

    I knew where it was but curious about the morphology.....

    You'll have to double clutch like the rest of us Maurice...... :wink:

    Peter H