Rivets revisited

Discussion in 'Armory & Military' started by charliec, Jul 31, 2005.

  1. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    There have been a number of different techniques for adding rivet details
    to AFV models. Aside from adding small disks or drops of paint/glue to the surface of a model the simplest method is to emboss the surface. Unfortunately finding the rivet location usually requires a light box or similar. I've recently found an even simpler method of finding the rivet locations - I was working with scans and found the camo colour was too dark for the rivet details to show through in a light box. If you're working with the original - start by making scans of the parts with the rivet details.

    - Using a graphics program (I used GIMP) swap the camouflage colour(s) to white - this should leave the part outlines and rivet details on a white background.
    - Flip the image in the vertical plane - this gives a mirror image.
    - Print out on thin paper.
    - Cut out the mirrored parts.

    What you get is a set of templates which you can tack onto the back of the model parts with 2-sided tape. I guess you could laminate the templates on but I haven't tried that. Embossing the model parts is then straight forward.

    I must be re-inventing the wheel - so if this is a well known technique that's so obvious no-one bothers recording it - I'm sorry for wasting your time.

    Regards,

    Charlie
  2. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    Charlie,

    Embossing is a great technique. Suprising that it's not discussed more on this forum.

    Question though, how do you align the two pieces? It's disaster time if the two pieces are misaligned by only a small amount. I've also found that a light coat of Aleene's Tack It Over & Over on the template does a good job of keeping it fixed on the work piece. Only problem is aligning it accurately whilst it's padded down in place.

    Gil
  3. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    Agreed on alignment of the templates. I've used 2-sided tape to do this
    though your "tack and go" product would work. The trick seems to be to
    not try to fully emboss the rivet details through the template but indent
    the model part enough so you know where the rivet detail should be, remove the template and fully emboss the detail. Doing it this way allows
    for small corrections in the location of the emboss detail. Embossing seems to be a skill in it's own right - it's very easy to get over enthusiastic with the embossing tool and punch through the paper.

    There's probably a whole bunch of ideas to explore with this technique such as embossing when the paper is damp, fillling the emboss indents with acrylic varnish to stop the emboss detail slumping through relaxation of the paper.

    Regards,

    Charlie
  4. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    Charlie,

    I found that scribing lines and shapes in a sheet of plexiglass allows panel and access panels to be quickly and easily embosed. It's also neat to use it to emboss a ridge line on both closure ends of a fuselage section one is coated with cement and fit into the other. Makes a beautiful joining method even though it's a lap joint. You're right, the possibiities are fairly open ended.

    Gil
  5. Jim Nunn

    Jim Nunn Member

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    Charlie,

    This solution is a keeper. I have a DIY light box but find it clumsy to use this I am going to try.

    Jim Nunn
  6. jlinscheid

    jlinscheid Member

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    Perhaps you could add reference points just outside the cut lines. Cut the parts out, but leave the reference points.

    Poke a hole through the reference points and use push-pins to perfectly align your parts.

    When done trim the part removing the reference points.

    I haven't tried it, but it seems a reasonable solution in theory.
  7. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    That's certainly a possibility. The way I've used this is to cut out the model
    part, score the fold lines and as the last step used the templates to add
    the embossing. I've found that embossing doesn't like being handled and
    you run the risk of flattening out the rivet detail that you've painstakingly added with no chance of fixing it once it's glued on the model. (I've thought that dropping acrlyic varnish into the indents of the embossing might help with this problem.) Since the model part is already cut out (as is the template) lining the two up is very easy.

    As an example of the problems you can run into with embossing look
    at the T-27 documented at http://www.modelik.pl/index.php?show=gale_mist_09_02&lang=uk.
    It shows flattening on the embossed rivets as well as some over-enthusiastic use of an embossing tool.

    There's a caveat in this - your printer must be capable of printing the parts
    sheets reproducibly. This doesn't seem to be a problem with my Canon i560 printer, I don't know about other printers.

    Regards,

    Charlie
  8. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    Charlie,

    Suggest acrylic modeling paste sold at most art stores. It can be applied like spackle, knifed off and allowed to dry. It's great for making paper and embossed detail tough. Makes good joint filler and weld lines too.

    Gil
  9. Maurice

    Maurice Member

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    As a solution for the alignment problem.
    Before you scan, draw a shape on the original, any shape that bounds the part(s).
    After scanning and mirroring cut both to the shape and go back to back.

    Cheers
    Maurice
  10. mininote

    mininote Member

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  11. Bowdenja

    Bowdenja Active Member

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    A seamstress punce wheel works pretty good too. And it already has a handle.

    john
  12. Bikerpete

    Bikerpete Member

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    All this is a lot of work....just dimple the rivet from the front then flip the paper over and re-dimple from the back...you guys make things way too complicated.

    PB
  13. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    PB,

    Doing front and back embossing will only weaken the paper further. There, that wasn't too complicated was it...,

    Gil
  14. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    Maurice - In effect your idea is what I'm doing by using the cut out parts. I agree your idea is a good one for small parts or groups of small parts such as hinges.

    As to the ideas of using ponce wheels, etc - in 1930s AFVs the external armour plates were rivetted to an internal steel frame. The spacing and location of the rivets in effect trace out the internal frame. This mightn't seem a big issue but it adds a lot to an AFV model if the pattern of rivets is close to the original. I've seen models where it's obvious that a ponce wheel or similar has been used for the rivet details and in many cases it just looks wrong.

    Regards,

    Charlie
  15. Bikerpete

    Bikerpete Member

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    Doing front and then back allows great registration and does NOT weaken the paper TOO much if the rivets are kept to a reasonable size and the paper is the weight most models are printed in.

    PB
  16. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    One method that works well is to use a pin to locate end and center points.

    Gil
  17. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    This is probably not quite on topic but might be interesting since it's an embossing thing.

    I've just received GPM's Panzer IVH kit - and it includes a sheet of embossed card with all the major external parts embossed with a Zimmerit(*) pattern. This seems to be taking AFV modelling into a whole new area (imho).

    Regards,

    Charlie

    * - Zimmerit was the non magnetic coating applied on the external parts of most front line Wehrmacht AFVs from 1943 - late 1944. The intent was to
    defeat the magnetic mines used by infantry. It usually was trowelled on which gives German AFVs of this period a distinctive patterned rough exterior which is challenging to model.
  18. charliec

    charliec Active Member

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    This is probably not quite on topic but might be interesting since it's an embossing thing.

    I've just received GPM's Panzer IVH kit - and it includes a sheet of embossed card with all the major external parts embossed with a Zimmerit(*) pattern. This seems to be taking AFV modelling into a whole new area (imho).

    Regards,

    Charlie

    * - Zimmerit was the non magnetic coating applied on the external parts of most front line Wehrmacht AFVs from 1943 - late 1944. The intent was to
    defeat the magnetic mines used by infantry. It usually was trowelled on which gives German AFVs of this period a distinctive patterned rough exterior which is challenging to model.
  19. Macaloni

    Macaloni New Member

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    Hi @ all,

    Jim Nunn asked me to explain how i made the rivets on my FT-17 http://www.cardmodels.net/phpbb2/album_comment.php?pic_id=1864. First let me tell you that i was not satisfied with the printed rivets on the original sheet. I scanned the model, printed it on my Epson inkjet-printer and decided to build this tank with a lot of weathering and 3D-effects as you can see on most of the plastic models.
    For the rivets i took imbued (is this the right word...?) cardboard (in german: Fotokarton) and with the help of a hammer and a hollow punch (1mm diameter) i punched out a lot of rivets. With a moistened toothpick i took a ‘rivet’ and placed it in a bed of white glue (only a drip). That’s all. The whole model was coated with grey primer, then coloured with enamel. The following steps required the same work for the weathering as for any plastic model.

    yours.... Macaloni

    Sorry for my english, but i am not a native speaker... :oops:
  20. Macaloni

    Macaloni New Member

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    Hi @ all,

    Jim Nunn asked me to explain how i made the rivets on my FT-17 http://www.cardmodels.net/phpbb2/album_comment.php?pic_id=1864. First let me tell you that i was not satisfied with the printed rivets on the original sheet. I scanned the model, printed it on my Epson inkjet-printer and decided to build this tank with a lot of weathering and 3D-effects as you can see on most of the plastic models.
    For the rivets i took imbued (is this the right word...?) cardboard (in german: Fotokarton) and with the help of a hammer and a hollow punch (1mm diameter) i punched out a lot of rivets. With a moistened toothpick i took a ‘rivet’ and placed it in a bed of white glue (only a drip). That’s all. The whole model was coated with grey primer, then coloured with enamel. The following steps required the same work for the weathering as for any plastic model.

    yours.... Macaloni

    Sorry for my english, but i am not a native speaker... :oops: