question re tank treads

[rockpaperscissor]

I'm a newbie folks so I hope this post is in the right forum. I've completed my first armored vehicle - the Maly Putilow-Garford armored car and have now worked up the fortitude to deal with a tracked vehicle and all those little cleats and bogies and such.
I will be building a simple tank model first - the ModelCard Panzer II Ausf. C. I'm considering assembling the tracks first as this seems to be the most labor intensive part of the build. Once this is done, I figure the rest will be a real pleasure. I have two quick and easy questions about the track build though:
The instructions say to sandwich "cardboard" between the wheel and groundside halves of the track (printed on thin paper). There is no * or + indicated to suggest either 1mm or 0.5mm cardboard. Which do I use - or, do I just sandwich in a layer of card stock?

Thanks for your advice,
Don

Here's a link to a slideshow of my Putilow-Garford
Click here

 

[Willja67]

I don't know beans about tank treads and the like but you did an excellent job on your Putilow!

 

[charliec]

I will be building a simple tank model first - the ModelCard Panzer II Ausf. C. I'm considering assembling the tracks first as this seems to be the most labor intensive part of the build. Once this is done, I figure the rest will be a real pleasure. I have two quick and easy questions about the track build though:
The instructions say to sandwich "cardboard" between the wheel and groundside halves of the track (printed on thin paper). There is no * or + indicated to suggest either 1mm or 0.5mm cardboard. Which do I use - or, do I just sandwich in a layer of card stock?

The Modelcard tracks aren't very realistic but....

The PzKpfw II tracks were quite thin so 220 gsm cardstock (a bit thicker than normal cardstock) will probably be o.k. You'll probably have to score across the filler cardstock where the track hinges are so the track will approximate the sag of a real track. I think you'll find there are some fit problems with this kit especially around the front of the hull.

Regards,

Charlie

 

[rockpaperscissor]

Thanks for the track tips Charlie, as well as the heads up on the fit problems with the hull. It sounds like you have experience with this kit. I hadn't considered the benefit of scoring the filler cardstock for a more natural sag. I thought I'd be able to accomplish it with glue alone, but scribing the filler to make the track more flexible makes a lot of sense. I'll be wary of the fit of the skin also, thanks to your warning. Hopefully I'll be able to detect the problems before the parts are commited (cut and glued) and will be able to make corrections beforehand. I will definitely be making careful measurements now before I go too crazy with the scalpel.

Thanks again,

Don

 

[Jim Nunn]

Don,

I would be tempted to suggest that you try building one of the newer (read that as better) kits The Halinski PzKw II is great model, no interior but very good fits and nice weathered coloring. The down side is that it has individual track links and admittedly they do take some time to cut out and build.

The following photo shows how the Halinski Panther links are built up

 

[charliec]

The Halinski PzKpfw II tracks are even more challenging than the Halinski
Panther because they are so fine. Marian Sobel - the designer - did a great
job of representing the original PzKpfw II track but it's not for a beginner to
attempt (imho).

After a bit of memory digging ....

The problem with the Modelcard PzKpfw II is that the frames don't match the
skin at the front of the hull. The skin looks about right - judging from drawings/photos but the frame is about 2mm too shallow at the front of the hull.

I'd recommend not to glue the frame together until you've got it to dry fit the skin properly - there are a number of small inaccuracies in the frame which will give you grief later in the build.

Regards,

Charlie

 

[rockpaperscissor]

OMG Jim! I don't think I'm ready for THAT yet. The tracks alone are a model. I think I'd run out of gas long before I finished one side. Just the thought of gluing on all the track cleats in my Modelcard kit is freakin' me out. The Halinksi kit would put me in a rubber room.

Charlie, I'll be sure to watch the dimensions on my Modelcard kit closely before final cutting and gluing. I'll leave some "fat" on the front skin before final fitting. I can match the color pretty closely if some white winds up showing. Or, leaving fat on the frame may be the better solution. Of course, then the front hull angle will be different which will throw the sides off. One change in the beginning affects everything that follows. It'll be a learning experience, that's for sure.

Thanks again guys,

Don

 

[charliec]

I remembered also that the colour is not right on the Modelcard PzKpfw II -
I think the kit comes from a time when "Panzergrau" (RAL 7021) was thought to be a grey colour. Recent historical work has shown pretty convincingly that Panzergrau was nearly black. Recent kits like the GPM PzKpfw IVD show this.
There are colour samples at:

http://www.jpsmodell.de/main_e.htm

This site might help with reference photos, etc:

http://mk-armour.narod.ru/2002/04/08.htm (Pz II images)
http://mk-armour.narod.ru/2002/04/09.htm (Pz II drawings)

As usual with narod.ru sites it's slow.

Regards,

Charlie

 

[rockpaperscissor]

I see what you mean Charlie. My kit certainly isn't THAT dark. I would think that paint would fade to varying degrees in the field, and I will be doing some weathering also, so I'm not too hung up on the color.
I took the time to measure the outline of the frame sides versus the skin, and you are absolutely correct, they are off substantially. That's the bad news. The good news is that the total length of the skin matches what is actually needed to wrap the hull from back to front. I'm hoping it will just be a matter of ignoring the printed score lines, and doing my scores based on the measurements from the frame sides. There is an angle on the rear of the skin that will have to be changed to match the shape of the frame. Otherwise I think I'll be OK.
I can't thank you enough for the warning. I would have just blindly cut and scored the skin and been mightily PO'd when it wouldn't fit. Might have been my first, and last tank kit. With future kits, I will ALWAYS measure the frame/skin before I proceed.

Regards,

Don

 

[ramatoto]

Hi Don,

i think, you shouldn't depent too much on the right colour. It is right, that there was on colour, deffinied as "Panzergrau" on the paper, but only the vehicles that left factory after that point were coloured with it. All others were painted at shops in the field. they got there colour concentrated in cans, to be mixed for brush or spray. There was a varity from really nearly black down to light gray, depending on the guy who mixed the colour.

So we can say, nearly every model-colour could be the right one....

Ralf

 

[charliec]

Fair comment. I would think that the Panzers in the early short campaigns would have been dominated by factory finished tanks. Certainly the photos of panzers from the invasion of France don't show much variation in shade (judging from the b&w photos). In the longer campaigns such as Russia where tanks were being repaired at workshop level and returned to service there certainly seems to be a lot of variation in colour. It's also complicated since many of the images we have today are WW2 propaganda photos and probably don't represent what the tanks looked like in service.

To Don: Glad I could help.

Regards,

Charlie

 

[charliec]

Just to muddy the waters - I found the following on the Panzer tracts site.

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

So it looks as if most early war Panzers were painted 1/3 Dark brown, 2/3 Panzer grey. It was not until July 1940 that the all Panzer grey scheme
was ordered.

( For those who don't know - Panzer Tracts is an attempt to correct much misinformation about Panzers by going back to original source documents and
surviving vehicles )

Regards,

Charlie

 

[ramatoto]

Hi Ccharlie,

that´s similar to my informations. I´ve found some pictures of early-war-time, all painted in that dark grey/brown camouflage. Off course they are all BW....

Ralf