Paper Tank Turrets: Best Method to Make it Round??

Discussion in 'Armory & Military' started by MilanX3, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Good Day,

    I have spent the last two years or so making 1:72 and similar scale models of experimental armour, alot from the VK series seen on WoT as well as cold war and modern Russian and French armour as inspired by the Kubinka museum collection. I hope to create a 3 dimensional source of reference material that can compliment tank museums or rare documents or even get WoT players into the modelling scene.

    My models are not mapped out like many kits, but use blueprints and any information available to give me resources to make the kit. I want to keep them simple so they can be made quickly with a decent shape and enough detail to give someone knowledge of the design details of the real tank, while not dragging out the construction out for a long time. In addition, I leave the colouring blank usually so it can be later completed via an art program or even by hand. I have made over 40 kits, but have been stuck on one problem.

    I have experimented making rounded turrets and have not been able to consistently make the same shape or a shape that mirrors the form of the actual tank.

    I've had some success with the T-55 series of tanks, but not consistently.
    Two models have been the most challenging to this point. The first is the German tank Lowe turret, and the second is the turret for Russian Destroyers called the AK-130.

    I would like to ask for the best suggestions the community has for making these two turrets, both round at many angles and difficult to get right.

    If anyone wishes to make an official Challenge in creating the best AK-130 and Lowe please do so or advise me how to do so, as I am new at foruming! I'd much appreciate feedback and problems on technique in making the model. I am looking for innovative and possibly new ideas in making these small kits great. I believe trial and error is the best method!

    Please search for AK-130 and Lowe, or contact me to help find details on either item.

    Attached is my best attempt at the Lowe to date...excuse the straw, its about the turret really!

    Cheers,
    MilanX3

    Good Day,

    I have made a template for making an appx. 1:72 scale paper model of the German Tiger Lowe from World of Tanks fame. I had some problems getting the correct shape for the turret, and after much fiddling and research and shooting a few Lowes on the WoT game to relieve some frusteration (Can't kill a Lowe, they always end up shooting me!), I decided to challenge the community on Zealot to try their hand and share their feedback on the build and useful techniques in making the Lowe and its uniquely rounded turret.

    I have included my second attempt in the fotos attached. As well, I have included the simple template I used to build the model. Ideally you should aim for the entire black and white plain build to take under 3-4 hours. If you wish to put your own art, colour, or design on the template please do, but for the actual paper build please aim for under the 3-4 hour limit for the challenge. The focus of this model is it to be simple and get the correct form, but be simple so many can be made for army building, a short afternoon of hobbymaking or simply to use as BB fodder! Please communicate diligently about your method and build. Fotos are encouraged and please share any alterations...enjoy!

    After the Lowe, please try the Advanced challenge, the AK-130 Russian Destroyer Turret!

    Cheers,
    MilanX3

    Attached Files:

  2. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    If you are making models in a method that allows for painting them afterwards, a way the unfortunately many have no experience anymore with with the advent of the home printer, I would suggest you make the shape turret you desire out of plaster, make a rubber mold of it, and mix a paper mache mixture that you use in conjunction with flat pieces of paper, and you can get that forged, or cast look of many of the tanks out there.
    Another alternative would be to make the turret the conventional way, the cut out the offending areas, and fill them with the paper mache mixture, then sand and paint to suit our need. Just a suggestion. :)
  3. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Hi Zath,

    Thanks for your suggestions and I advise all readers to keep on passing those suggestions down.

    I dont design them for paint per se, but to be coloured on an art program or just using pencil crayons. I was thinking of doing it out of knock-off play doh or other materials you suggest below. What I am aiming for is simplification as my method is to try to keep the build of the model under 3 hours. I have been advised using petals previously. I have never heard of a paper mache technique (glue, paper water?) but that might be an option as well. Sanding something down would help too. I would have to get the form and then glue the printed turret details on top, its a good suggestion, but I havent made paper mache since i was a little tot!

    Thanks for your response...keep em coming guys!

    MilanX3

  4. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    If your printer uses Pigment based ink, most Epson printers do, you will have a better chance wetting a printed surface and then forming it to your desired shape, over a preformed shape or using your thumbs. Not too wet, or the image comes off. It will not run though. Dye based ink runs and is a drag in that respect.

    Making a press with a positive and negative so that you could press a paper mache, or even Elmer's glue with tons of saw dust in it would work. I think of many ways to do this. It's just a matter of what you are comfortable with. The two part steel epoxy gets so hard it machinable. :)
  5. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    In that case it sounds like it would be best to do the art on a program before printing, and ready the freshly printed page for moulding and adjusting soon after print? I have a Canon (not Cannon!! :) ) and wonder if this would perform as the Epson as it uses the same tech in any case.

    What do you think would be the easiest method? Do you think it might be a good option for a Challenge in the other section of the blog? I think a challenge for the Lowe turret any scale and AK-130 Destroyer turret would be an interesting learning experience. Is it prohibited to upload the 3 and 4 view drawings?

    Lowe, as it always turns out close to good, but never gets there

    Ak-130, as it has multiple round surfaces, quite a paper modeller challenge..I was looking at planes to learn to do angles actually, my AK-130 came out looking like a well armed marshmellow! Davai!

    Cheers Zath,
    MilanX3


  6. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    You can upload whatever drawings you want. Don't be surprised if other people use them and make their own models out of them though. I thought it was best to wait till the ink dried, that way you would have a working envelope before the ink lifted. You'll have to experiment. To be honest, I think these methods only work for one off models. ;)
  7. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Yes, my intent is for other with more experience to take the challenges on using the same drawings as I used and help develop a best method. For the Lowe for example, I wanted a simple model that can be camo'ed by the builder as they wish so they could make as many as they want in a simple manner for their own purposes, be it gaming, diorama or just using them as BB gun practice!

    Ill put them in the Competition section, and added the drawings here as well. I'd love to see how people approach these two.

    Cheers,
    Rich

    Attached Files:

  8. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    I've merged your threads, they are too similar.
  9. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    I recently found photos of resin models of the Lowe, whats the rule on posting pics or how to find the pics on Zealot? I think it gives a good guide to the shape.

    Cheers,
    Rich
  10. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    You can post pics of the resin models if you wish, no problem there. :)
  11. lehcyfer

    lehcyfer Member

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    You can make a wooden model of the turret, then wax it, glue it over with strips of thin paper (like for cigarettes), then cut it up on the model, take off, lay flat and scan on dark background. Then you can use a graphic utility to draw the outlines - to print and test fit.
  12. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    TO be honest, I have seen some of he most incredible tank models and this is never really an issue. Nothing a little filler can't solve. Rehashing the whole limits of paper things is old. :)
  13. lehcyfer

    lehcyfer Member

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    The thing is - with this method the filler is unnecessary - the shape is done from flat piece of paper.

    Some call it a paper purism :)
  14. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Here is a pic of a resin Lowe from Henk of Holland page. You can see the unique shape of the turret, round and flat on top.

    Attached Files:

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  15. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Ah, that is very clever! Have you done this on any model plans before? Does it matter if its shaped out of wood or another material?


  16. lehcyfer

    lehcyfer Member

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    No, I've read about this technique in a Polish book about making card models of tanks (from about 30 years ago). This is an old technique from before computer designing.

    I've copied some pictures from the book where the author explains it on an example of turret similar to that of T-54:

    1. First you need shape of the turret - there are sometimes some very precise theoretical lines available or just simplified ones (less chaff to prune ;) ).
    2. You combine flat cutouts of sections through the turret into a "skeleton" (you can see it in intermittent lines in the final picture). You use only as much sections as are necessary to represent the changing dimensions of the turret - you later use the same skeleton to glue it over with the final parts.
    3. Then you fill it with some workable material. The author soaked the paper skeleton in nitro lacquer and filled it with gypsum. You can use some other material as long as you can later file and/or sandpaper it into the proper shape of the turret. As you can see on the third picture he did only half of the turret because it was symmetrical.
    4. Then you lacquer the shape and cover it with some grease to easy removal of paper.
    5. And cover the outside of the shape with belts of very thin paper wet with thinned paper glue. First in one direction, then perpendicular (like on the third picture).
    6. Finally you cut the paper in such a way that it creates "leaves" which will then be glued together. You take the paper off the turret, flatten and scan it to work further on a computer graphic utility. Sometimes you can first take the paper off the shape and then cut it - depending on the situation and what works best for you.

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  17. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Have you ever tried Rhino3D? It would save you a lot of time and you would not have to be exposed to so many chemicals. This is done using Non-uniform rational basis spline mathematics (second time today I've had to explain this) and is how shapes are made. You end up with the same result and anything you have to glue together will leave lines unless you are painting it. Using all the materials you talk about pushes the "purist" definition a bit. Careful manipulation of control points before you create a surface can yield the same results and you won't get you hand dirty. If you wanted to be really pure about it, make a positive of the turret, cast a rubber mold, then make paper mache turrets, which you could make rather thin, smooth, paint over, and have the exact shape you want.. Nothing new here. Interesting as all heck though. I think this is a interesting information you have posted. If I had more time, I would post a similar picture done in Rhino, maybe later, I have to go Vote! :)
  18. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    The drawings marked 1 are of shapes that by their nature cannot be flatted, mullti-compound curves. Those marked 2 are taking the vertical lines of the mesh as rails to form those surfaces. The drawing marked 3 is using the horizontal ellipse curves as rails. I think that the ellipses as rails make the best pieces. Number three, and the original one, number one are the most similar. Thus formed using that method and any filler, sander, or whatever you want to call it, will give you a very close to finished product. I think thick paint would take care of it. The unfolded parts numbered with dots show their orientation. This is a useful feature in Rhino as it keeps you oriented and also makes for good instruction capability. Does any of this make sense? :)

    Attached Files:

  19. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    Wow..that is fascinating, and a great method for us non computer using paper modellers. I will have to study this method in practise!

    Thank you so much, I am loving this threat, so many good ideas!



  20. MilanX3

    MilanX3 Member

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    For myself I have only used drawings and scissors. I have a program called Gimp, but am aware of Rhino3D. I think my biggest block is that I have never used to program Rhino3D before and would have to figure out how it works. Is there a simple tutorial somewhere to use it? Do u recommend trail and error perhaps? I know there are programs out there that will make a layout of a 3D model specifically for physical construction. I'd love to learn this as I am hoping my paper modelling techniques could lead to full scale 3D models on those new 3D printers...now that is surely not purist!