Lx35 - MICRO-MODULES FOR LISBON TRAMS

Discussion in 'Traction Thoroughfare' started by carlos filipe, Sep 12, 2012.

  1. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    It was kind of embarrassing to find thru a Japanese forum and another in France, people motorizing static models of Lisbon trams in H0e, found in the souvenir shops orin the gift shop of Carris’s Museum in Lisbon. We tend to overlook what is at our doorstep.

    http://museu.carris.pt/pt/produtos/replicas-e-miniaturas/

    The motorization is a Bandai chassis used for their range oF B-trains. I’m buying them from HobbySearch1999, but you can find them on Plaza Japan. I get them at €21.00+shipping.

    There’s still the matter of the pantograph. After remodelling in the 80s or 90s, the trams got an upgrade, including a pantograph. They kept the trolley to start the vehicle at the barn. I was told that it was needed the trolley to start the trsam at the barn, but i see photso with the pantogragh down and the trolley working...

    For more info, check Wikipedia:

    http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/El%C3%A9tricos_de_Lisboa

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  2. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Lx35, part 2

    I and my modelling buddy Joaquim Capinha , we’re developing norms for micro modules. We chose Tomix track as it has tighter curves and turnouts. Although T-Trak is a good proposition we are looking for something with a different approach.

    The norms of the Japanese modeller signing as Poppo seemed us very interesting

    http://space.geocities.jp/popoya2008/menu.html

    We adopted them for Tomix geometry, thus instead of straight modules with 312mm we’re going for 350mm.

    The idea is still sketchy, check further developments in my blog

    http://narrowgaugebroadminds.blogspot.pt/

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  3. silveroxide

    silveroxide Well-Known Member

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  4. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    We're addressing to modelers with different levels of experience. We are in fact not that much experienced either.
    On the Clevermodels site (papermodels) there's an interesting video where they show their exhibition layout in H0n30.
    It is a very convincing use of paper models.
    There are no commercial models of Portuguese architecture. Some roof plates can be found and that's it. Everything has to be done from scratch.
    We're looking for a stylised graphic representation that can give the feeling of Lisbon.
    We shall try an approach with paper. Using GoogleSkecthup we shall prepare some building facades. Glue them to foam core and create this way the framing for our trams on narrow streets. There some parts of line 28, near the castle, that one has to be agaisnt the wall to let pass the tram.
    I think is an engineering feat to be able to pass a tram thru medieval streets.

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  5. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    As you've noticed, there are two paint schemes. The yellow one is the regular since... maybe the 40s, definetly the 50s of last century. The red one is for the tourist trams. Line 28 is the most used for a good view of the town as it goes up and down hills on his 1 and half hour ride.
    These two photos are from a street where the trams have to wait for the opposite direction tram to arrive from a single track street. I don't recall the gradients, but they're quite alpine.

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  6. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Does anyone ever get run over by those trains? Some of those streets look like there is no standing room when the train squeezes through! :)
  7. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Hi Zathros:
    We get by, that's our way...
    But have seen and also done to glue against the doors of the buildings to keep a safe distance.
    Anyhow the tram speed in these areas is very low.
    I've been looking a photo that Joaquim Capinha took this spring (most photos here are from him) of a particular stretch of Line 10 where on a tight curve the tram almost rides on 2 wheels. It is a funny photo I'll post as soon as I find it.
    In a way, Lisbon trams are more than a transportation, they are a way of enjoying the town.
    regards
    Carlos
  8. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Later on I'll try to prepare a complete colection of types of Lisbon tram. We also had bogies trams from Brill. Actually the Bachmann model is a good departure. There's a difference of one window (I think it is missing one) and of course, requires a major cirgury to turn it into narrow gauge. Maybe with Bullant chassis.
  9. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    I bet they really give you a feel for the town, seeing and hearing everything in 3d!! :)
  10. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Hi Zathros:
    Indeed you feel the pulse of the town riding a tram. The windows can be lowered to the level of your elbow. The tram is filled with noises of conversations and from the streets, the horning of unpatient cars, the sound of the wheels on the tracks. If you're passing a grocery or a cafe for brief moments the odours will enter the tram. The old trams shake as they go up and down, the squeeking of the wood frames, the humming of the motors releasing an odour to ozone. The speed is between 5 and 15km/h. Sometimes there's an unexpected stop because someone parked the car wrongly. The driver rings a bell, a metalic clic-clic-clic easily heard. Patiently the driver waits, the passengers strecth their necks. After a while someone will rush out of a shop or house, smiling (sooorry...), the tram driver will nod, the passengers will start commenting the event as if they were long time acquaintances. Rarely is needed to call the central to call the police. I know they do that, but never witnessed.
    The trams are considered by many a nuisance for the car traffic. This perception closed many lines and sent the trams to junkyards. They became a common sight on beaches as bars.
    I was told that a railfan living not far from me bought 3 trams, restored them and has his own line (probably not even 100m). Seems he can pawer them with a welding machine.
    Nowadays there is a more widespread conscious of heritage and the remaining trams from a huge fleet are preserved and give to the company a good return.
    But as I said before, the tram is more than a way of going from A to B, it is a way fo going around.
  11. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    trains like that can be easily maintained,upgraded, and modernized, without loosing any external appearance, and this can be done by local people. I would love to have something like that in my town, but it is too rural. Heck, we don't even have sidewalks, and my road isn't even paved! I guess new England has it's own charm. I still want one of those trains though. I attached a couple of pictures of my neighborhood, this first photo is 8/10th of a mile from me. There is another pond like it even closer. :)

    [​IMG]

    Nearby town beach:

    [​IMG]

    Main road, near my house, about 1 mile, note, no sidewalks!

    [​IMG]

    It's pretty,looks inviting, but in reality, if you flounder, you will find yourself booted out of this town as there is nothing for people in need, nothing for homeless people, and in the Winter, you would die of exposure, as no one would stop to pick you up if you were stuck. I have only lived here for 11 years, so I could be wrong.
  12. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Hi Zathros:
    The photos you publish demonstrate another perspective of ocupying the territory.
    We still have places like that in Portugal. But it subsists here the erroneous concept that "progress=building (a lot!). I like where I live but sometimes I feel like an animal in a zoo. My environment has some green just to please the fauna.

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  13. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    This place has been occupied by Man since Neolhitic. There are vestiges from the Phoenicians, from Romans, from the Moors.
    It was the place of refuge of the Royal Court in times of diseases in Lisbon. The nobility had palaces and farms here. During Industrial Revolution this was a place on the edge of development.
    Since the 60s of last century we became the suburbia of Lisbon. people move here for the housing prices slightly cheaper than in the capital, the beach is near. But they go out in the morning and return late in the evening. They have no connection with the place.
    Worst, who has the reigns of power seems to be disconnected form our History. Our heritage is let crumble until there's nothing to do, but to demolish.
    I have a tram, but sometimes I wonder off if wouldn't be beter in a place like yours

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  14. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    You home screams culture. My town's has tiny signs stating where the battles of the Revolutionary war happened. Those guys fought all over the place. Then the land from the town was purchased from the Indians for 65 pounds British sterling, and a loaf of Bread (made the bread part up :) ). I wonder if those Indians knew what they were getting into. They should have leased the land for 50 years, and asked for 30 white woman in trade. Now that would have been a deal! I know a couple of Schatagicoke Indians. they don't seem to think they got the better end of the deal. There is still a Reservation for those Indians here. There's another one not to far from me in New York. These guys have their own laws, Judges, Police and Jails.

    You home has obviously had man foot print for a long time, but that part of the world is quite beautiful, as is your town. I would feel quite gruff and out of place in a place with that much culture, but I would still go! I wish I had the money, I would love to visit there, and see you too! :).
  15. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Hi Zathros:
    You're quite welcome anytime!
    We have an annual Theater Festival considered to be one of the most important in Europe. It happens during June just 100m away form my house on the following street. We have a modern theatre (also on the same street). The cultural agenda is full spread around several halls. One of the events used to be an annual model exhibition, but last year the town hall changed the dates and the club payed with their own money the renting of a place.
    It is a town that tries to atract the middle class. But that is recent History. Until the 70s this was a working class area, the biggest shipyard was here. Now is closed and there will be a new development addressed to middle and upper classes. Until the 50s, htere many working class societies, many existing for 80 years (most of them still exist and celebrate 124th anniversary and so on. There were places with small theaters showing films or staging amateurs plays. There were libraries were the workers seek for knowledge. Before the shipyards, was the corck industry with a big component on export. Before that was the manufacture of wooden casks. It has always been a county of sailors. Already in the Roman times there was an active industry of fish preserves to export to the whole Empire. The southern margin of the river tagus was a huge complex with soem places making pottery, others the preserves or other goods.
    The urban sprawl is emptying the core of the town, we have the common shopping mall, the residential areas with expensive villas and some urbanizations (I think you call in the US the projects) the euphemism for segregation and take away the hope from some parts of the population. The only difference here is that we are very "democratic" is not by colour of the skin, but by how much you have in the pocket. Some people don´t even have enougj to open a bank account (even if there is a law saying there cannot be a minimum for opening an account...
  16. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    As for battles we had quite a few.
    For Lisbon to be conquered, the Portuguese king in 1130 something had to order a raid to Almada in the hand of the moors. There's a writen testimony by the english knight Osborne. The Crusades helped the Portuguese to conquer Lisbon (free of charge, not even 65 pounds...). In the 1380 something, the Spanish (that time the Castillans) invaded Portugal. Since the siege to Lisbon was not working, they decided to take Almada. The Castilla king was so sure they would take the castle on a certain day, he ordered a tribune to be erected, so he could appreciate his victory. It didn't happen as he expected, he left the place. Minutes after the tribune is blown in pieces by a canon shot form the castle. They were not even aware that the Castilla king was there, but it looked as a good target.
    During a Civil War between liberals and Absolutists (the first for the Constitution, the later against) in 1830 something it happend a huge battle in farms, swamps and riverine settlements. The battle with several episodes ended during the night when the Absolutist General ..... (forgot his name) regrouping his forces, by mistake started to give orders to the opposing force, thinking it was his own staff. He was recognized, killed and butchered. A cruel death for a cruel man. Following day the revolutionaries entered Lisbon and the Constitution was again the law.
    The republic was acclaimed here one day before the solemn declaration in Lisbon in 1910.
    But many of these places are being demolished and the traces of our heritage being erased. So be thankfull for your signs...
  17. Doctor G

    Doctor G Active Member

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    Great Thread

    What a neat thread with beautiful pictures!!

    I wish we had these great trams here in the cities of the United States.

    I spent time in Portugal during my honeymoon in 1978. What a great place. Loved the sea coast, smoked fish and the very cool Portuguese "bull fights" in which the bull is not killed but wrestled in to submission.....great fun.

    Keep up the good work.

    Tom
  18. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Thank you Tom.
    But let's not forget that one of the underlying story on "Who framed Roger Rabitt" was tram vs. car (I'm oversimplifying).
    In the US we even had interurban trams, besides the ones serving the urban cores. It was an economical and green way of going from A to B, powered by electricity.
    Then you had the concept of the PCC in the 40s. A great idea of standarization to cut costs, As far as I understood, many manufacturers were involved, the chassis would be the same, but eventually the motors could have been different. I'm just guessing, there are people in this forum more knowlegeable about this.
    I feel trams are having a comeback everywhere in the world.
    The Germans developed a tram that can ride on tram tracks and on normal tracks, so it can get out of town and move on existing railway tracks redefined for new tasks.
    The French have developed an hybrid of tram and bus. It goes on tyres, with a central track, much like a slot car. It seems it needs some improvements, but it's an interesting concept.
    There are several projects of trams (can you still call them like that?) that ride on virtual tracks. Guides embedded in the pavement to keep the vehicle on the right course.
    As for the Lisbon trams, I was happy to find that some have been sold abroad, so they were spared to destruction. One is in the US, but couldn't get a photo, another in Canada.
    1. A welsh preservation society
    2. In a park at Mar de la Plata, Argentina
    3. A British preservation society
    4. In Soller, Mallorca a Spanish island in the Mediterrenean
    5. aAt Whitehorse, Yukon, Canada
    6. At Cordoba, Argentin

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  19. carlos filipe

    carlos filipe carlos filipe

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    Lisbon trams started operating in 1901. The first electric trams in Iberian Peninsula. Before that there were trams pulled by horses, affectionnaly called "americanos" (americans) I believe because it was a concept imported form the USA.
    Porto (300kms North of Lisbon) still have trams operating. A funny note, they had (cannot precise until when) a special tram with a low side board in certain schedules to the fish market so the fish mongers could cary with them the fish without spreading the stench inside the tram.
    There still trams in Sintra, a small town 30kms west of Lisbon, wit only one route form town to the beach. They are in finantial dificulties and I'm affraid they don't operat anymore.
    There trams and trolley in Coimbra, (some 150km North of Lisbon). The trams disappeared, the trolleys remain. Odd, it is the only town in Portugal using this type of cheap mean of transportation.
    In Braga further up north above Porto, there were also trams.
    1. americano
    2. Porto
    3. Lourenço Marques, today Maputo in Mozambique
    4. Coimbra
    5. Sintra
    6. Braga

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  20. Zathros

    Zathros Guest

    Slow Brain working here. I lived in Philadelphia, Pa., this thread kept circling in the back of my mind, there were loads of electric buses and trolleys. Their character was kind of "meh", but they were interesting. The wires over the roads made some of the streets look hideous abut the crackling of electricity was fun to watch, though it would leave you with temporary blind spots! The one picture showing all the wires is Frankford Ave. at daybreak, light up, it looks nice, in broad daylight, it is horrid. There is a move to use induction and have all of this underground a foot or so, which would clean this all up. of course, if the did this, and anyone who knew a little about electronics, you could make a very simple vehicle to ride around town for free. I knew some people who used to tap into the trolley cars, they hadn't paid for electricity for decades. They used massive step down transformers, which they purchased via 5 finger discount, and had wired whole neighborhoods like this. There are a lot of pay offs going on in Philly, the city of Brotherly love, as long as you're not a "Brother". It's changed much since I lived there, though the more things change, the more they stay the same, sometimes. The picture of the Bus shows how wide and away these buses can travel from the wires. it is quite amazing to see these arms extend and retract automagically! :)

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