John English 2-8-2 Question

Discussion in 'HO Scale Model Trains' started by Ray Marinaccio, Aug 11, 2003.

  1. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    I have this old John English 2-8-2, can anyone tell Me if this is the right tender that would have come with it? It's a one peice brass casting, with no rivit detail. I bought this as a basket-case at a show and the tender came with it. I hear that In the early days of Ho you bought the locomotive and tender seperately. Could that be the case with these?

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  2. jim currie

    jim currie Active Member

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    ray

    tender looks just like one in mr add from early 50's.
  3. brakie

    brakie Active Member

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    Ray,Where in the world are you finding these antiques?? BTW Keep it up as I enjoy looking back at the days of old...:D
  4. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    I found most of these at shows as basket-cases. Then searched high and low for the parts to complete them. Some parts need to be substituted or built from scratch. What other oldies would you like to see?
  5. brakie

    brakie Active Member

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    Any and all you care to show.:D I really like seeing those oldies but goodies.
  6. pjb

    pjb Member

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    The tender is not the original tender offered with this loco. English's pacific and mikado shared same boilers and tenders and were made out of diecast zamac . They were cheapest kits of such 'large power' when introduced , and if anything had too large rivethead detailing. Bowser (NYC 'K-11') , Penn Line ('K-4' & 'L-1') also produced didcast locos , but charged more and included the valve gear. Mantua sold loco that was loosely based on Reading prototype which was made of cast zamac and fabricated brass . Varney was closing out there production of mostly cast bronze boilered steam locos , that had originally been sold in kit portions , and as economy kits , and premium kits. This complex setup went back to the Great Depression when no one, "had a penny to jingle on a tombstone" -much less buy model rialroad kits.
    Shortly after this ('50-'51), Varney began pushing diesels and added a single SP based 4-6-0 marketed as the "Casey Jones". Mantua went to diecast metal, and knocked out the generic modern pacific and mikado using the same interchangeability English used.
    MDC was to start making something larger than 0-6-0s shortly before the combination of Slot Car racing , Japanese imports, and other toys kicked 'HO' scale trains in the headin the early '60s. Varney folded its tent around the time of Gordon Varney's death, and the English firm went an acquired Penn-Line, John English , and the Bowser line of steam kits. They also picked up Selley and Cal-Scale's line of detailing components and kits , and eventuall Varney's diecast threesome of: "the Dockside" (B&O 0-4-0T of collosal proportions); "Casey Jones" (SP looking 4-6-0); and "Old Woman" (SP/Harriman looking 2-8-0).
    In any event, your loco has the separate valve gear kit applied (2 to 3 bucks) and does not have the original tender. John English ( which is not same company as own hobby shop and all the loco marques just mentioned under BOWSER name ) also made a Pennsy 0-4-0 (diecast zamac marketed as the "Yard Bird" and an industrial diesel similar to Lindsay's model . John English also seems to have owned or been involved with company marketing self-propelled electric cars under the Pitman label. Pitman motors is part of conglomerate we know up there in NE Pennsylvania as Bowser. The Pittman electric MUs used same bodies as John English's diecast passenger cars.
    If you have solid brass tender that is like nothing I know of. There were many fabricated brass tenders, and Varney had several hollow cast brass or bronze tenders, in their early line up (1938-1950). I hope this helps.
  7. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    This is great information. Thanks for sharing it.
    The search is on for the correct tender. The one I've got here is a hollow casting as you mentioned.
    Once again, thank you for that bit of HO history . It's not that easy to come by.
  8. Dan Vincent

    Dan Vincent Member

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    Ray,

    I had a John English Mikado back in the '50's and it had a one piece zamak tender that looked a lot like the one in your photo.

    It didn't have axle bearings like the Mantua locos and was a little wobbly going down the track.
  9. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    I have a one peice zamak tender behind a kit-bashed mikado. I got it with a bunch of OLD Mantua parts. I assumed it was an old Mantua. Not sure.

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  10. gerbs4me

    gerbs4me Member

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    very nice looking loco's
  11. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    Thank you.
    The B&O Mike is built on a modified Tyco tender drive frame with a scratch built boiler and cab from sheet styrene.
  12. nycrrmitch

    nycrrmitch New Member

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    Original tender?

    The tender in your picture did not come with the engine originally. I have two of these engines and one has the original tender which is a metal casting and has lots of rivets. The second engines tender was damaged beyond repair, so I am using a Bowser tender. Note the Pennsy tender on the second engine. The pilot on the upper engine is a scratch built brass built from a magazine article. Joe

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  13. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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  14. doctorwayne

    doctorwayne Active Member

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    Ray,

    The tender on your kitbashed Mike (nice work) looks to me like it could be a Varney. I have a 1953 Varney catalogue that shows a very similar tender....they call it a "Diecast Dilly" and label it a "Varney value at $4.00".
    As for the tender on your John English Mike, as pjb pointed out, it's not the original. I have an English Pacific (same boiler and tender as the Mike) bought used in the '50's. Its been through several incarnations and presently has a Kemtron all-weather cab, Elesco fwh, and a scratchbuilt tender. It still runs well. It also has the valve gear: the instructions show it as Central Valley #K12, available separately at $2.95.
    (I just installed pick-up shoes to compliment the unplated brass drivers and plan on removing the Elesco and changing back to a regular cab.) I'm planning to use the tender from a Bachmann 2-8-0 to give this loco a "family" appearance with the 2-8-0's that I use in freight service.
    I still have the original tender, less the trucks and front steps. Part of the coal load has also been filed off; in an earlier life this had been converted to an oil tender. Also, the rivets, (large) on the rear of the tender have been filed off; can't remember why I did that.
    The instructions show the price as $19.95 but there is no date shown. There is a price of $29.95 hand-written on the box, probably quite a sum when my Dad bought it in the mid-'50's.
    I also have the 0-4-0 Yardgoat, an appropriate name. The loco never ran well (it was given to me, used, by a friend of my Dad's). I dolled it up a bit cosmetically, but even when it ran, it wouldn't pull much. The loco is on my layout however, sitting in the weeds behind the car shop...scenery, never to run (poorly) again. The slopeback tender, more or less intact, sits in its original box.
    Good luck in your search for a useable tender for your Mikado.
    Wayne
  15. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    Wayne,
    The Central Valley #K12 kit is an interesting note.
    I didn't know about those, I knew Bowser was selling a valve gear kit for the English steamers.
    I was looking for an English Yard Goat, then found a Hobbyline boiler and cab that I fit onto a modified Mantua chassis to make a Pennsy A5. Still working on the scratch-built valve gear.
    As for the running characteristics of the English steamers, they were said to be not the best runners. After replacing the old DC-60 motor with a newer DC-60 the Mike doesn't run bad at all.
  16. yardbirdtrains

    yardbirdtrains New Member

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    You all have some good looking JE locos there. It's good to see them still out there. The tender on Ray's mike is actually a fairly rare Bowser tender that went with the early brass mountain locos Bill Bowser made. The tenders were a bit plain, but could be detailed to look fairly nice. The locos are a little hard to find, but the tenders are very difficult to locate.
    Dan - Yardbird Classic Trains
  17. Ray Marinaccio

    Ray Marinaccio Active Member

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    Hi Dan,
    Welcome to The Gauge. That's an interesting bit of information.
    I'll keep that in mind when I find the original tender and set this one aside untill I find a Bowser Mountain
    Where might I find info on the early brass Bowser mountains. I came across an unfamiliar brass chassis that I am trying to identify that was adapted to a hobbyline Berkshire.
  18. yardbirdtrains

    yardbirdtrains New Member

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    Ray,
    Sorry for the delay. I've been out of the office. I'm not sure where to find on-line info on the brass Bowser Mtn. If you want to snap a pic and post it, I can let you know if it is or not. Also, I have the original instructions on the brass Mtn. I would be happy to send to you.

    Dan
  19. toptrain1

    toptrain1 Member

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    Helpfull hint ! If you can't fine a original John English die cast tender you have a alternative. The English dies were purchased by Lionel. Their first home made Ho line came from these dies. The 0-4-0 yardbird became a 0-6-0 # 0602, 2-4-2 # 0643, and others. Hobbyline's 0-4-0t sadletanker became #0605. The John English 4-6-2 & 2-8-2 tender became the main tender for the Lionel Pacifics. So putting this Lionel tender behind a English Mike won't hurt the looks at all. One exception was the whistling tender on the SP pacific. It was the Hobbyline tender for the Birshire kit . Hobbyline was John Englishe's less expensive line for kits and train sets.
  20. yardbirdtrains

    yardbirdtrains New Member

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    JE tender

    Toptrain is correct about the Lionel Pacific tender. They are the same, but plastic, and will work fine if you can exchange the trucks for metal ones and run a wire from them to the motor lead. Added weight is needed as well.
    We do have the original die-cast JE Pacific/Mike tenders in stock if you want to keep a loco completely original. We also carry the JE A5 Yardbird tenders in stock, as well as all of the parts for all of the JE stuff. We've actually been working on a remotoring unit and affordable valve gear kit for the JE locos, and hope to have them out soon.