Hopefully Final Track Plan, 10 month anniversary (all comments welcomed)

Discussion in 'Track Planning' started by grandpacoyote, Jun 11, 2006.

  1. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Track Plan, 10 month anniversary -all comments welcomed- (updated 5/18/06)

    Hello Gang,

    Well today is our 10th month anniversary of starting out on a track and layout plan and what a long strange trip it’s been.

    The OL and I started out knowing nothing about Model railroading or real life railroads and nothing much about our chosen line, location and setting. We started with a simple idea ‘The ATSF line sometimes in the 1950’s where it runs along sections of Route 66’, it seemed pretty simple and so off we set.

    Along the way we left behind the idea of converting our garage to a train room because of expense and switched instead to using a spare bedroom which meant scraping the track plans we’d started for that space (four refined versions) and starting up a whole new one.

    The move to a smaller space brought about a period of refinement – Just what was the right place to model in the space given that met our original idea? That meant learning as much about Route 66 and the ATSF as we could; along the way things narrowed and narrowed and we ended up with: 1954 late spring to early summer in northern Arizona, along the line between Pinta and Holbrook Arizona and a big change – a fictional town depicting as many of the elements we wanted as we could.

    So we set out with a new set of design ideas for the new space. At first the idea of a small point to point was explored but many problems presented themselves. Concerns we had no idea of slowly surfaced, things like staging, passing sidings switchbacks, runarounds, yard designs – sometimes the lists of things to learn seemed endless but John Armstrong and Frank Ellison’s books were always close by and then came Ian Rice and many others.

    Through it all there also was the single greatest and most invaluable aid – wonderful, giving, patient sagely members of the forums. From Trains.com to the Gauge, modelrailroadforums.com, and good folks along the way: Texas Zephyr, Leighant, SpaceMouse, Ereimer, Masonjar, Fred Wright, 60103, Joe Fugate, Byron Henderson and many, many more who I apologize to for not naming here. Without all of you all this would have come to nothing.

    So now ten months, 5 major redesigns and 14 total plans later I’ve come back to feeling that I am potentially finished yet again so I come back again to my friends, mentors and ministers to show where I am and hear what comments, criticism and advice you can offer.

    So here is to ten months and good pals! :thumb:


    Here is the basic information with track plan picture below. As always any and all comments criticisms, advice or questions are welcomed and wanted.

    Track Plan Info:

    Scale: HO
    Name: Route 66 Railway.
    Locale: Northern Arizona alongside route 66. (In the fictional town of Gila, AZ)
    Period: 1954, late spring to early summer.
    Layout Height: Starting at 50".
    Track: Code 83.
    Turnouts: #6 on Mainline and inside Staging, #5 on industry spurs, #6 ½ curved leading to Staging, #7 ½ curved on Corner Crossovers, # 2 ½ wye on Wye and Industry spur.
    Curve Radii: 28" outside mainline, 26" inside mainline, some curves much broader in other areas- broadest curve in plan 6’ 2”.
    Outer Loop: Eastbound Traffic, Right handed (clockwise) running.
    Inner Loop: Westbound Traffic, Left handed (counter-clockwise) running.
    Industries: A - Scrap Yard, B – Fuel Oil Supplier, C - Shipping Warehouse, D – Bolt and Screw Factory, E – Station, F - Concrete Plant, G – Oil Field/Oil Tanks,
    H – Freight House/Team Track, I - Stock pens, J – Agricultural Co Op, K – Gravel Company.
    Points of Interest: A to C–2 to 13 Town of Gila, J-12 Blue Moon Drive In, G-2 E-2 Ranches.

    View attachment 27398
    (larger version can be viewed at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan10.jpg)

    Peace.
    Coyote

    P.S. I apologize for the length of this post. I just had a lot to say for a change. [​IMG]

    Attached Files:

  2. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    5,718
    Likes Received:
    0
    That looks great! I hope that all the work pays off for you, and you'll still be happy with it for a long time to come...

    One suggestion I have is to possibly put a wye in place of the single turnout that goes to staging. That way trains would not have to back in. I do note that you have a wye leading to the penninsula, but it does not look long enough to turn (for example) a long passenger train.

    The other is to shorten the runaround track for Gila that is currently comprised of crossovers at D-2 and H-13. Whether you want to do this will depend on how you plan to switch the industries at Gila (specifically the concrete plant versus all the others on the "north side" of the tracks).

    Can't wait to see this take shape!

    Andrew
  3. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Andrew,

    Hello sir, I sure hope it works out and holds my interest as well. I've been trying to take my time and get things right on paper first so I did paint myself into a corner with anything.

    Thanks for the advice; you were one of many to suggest that I should add in a Wye off the main into the staging and rework some of my crossovers and it is fine advice indeed. :thumb:

    I have done some work on the staging, wye off the main to staging and crossovers I will post it below. Let me know what you think, looking forward to hearing back from you.

    Peace.
    Coyote
  4. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Gang,

    Well here we go again! Got some great advice this round and it was full of food for thought.

    I have added a Wye set up from the Main into the staging so now trains can leave the staging heading in both directions, switched the direction of the crossover at F-13 and added a crossover at B-9 - this should enable trains to exit and enter either loop from staging onto the proper loop (inner or outer) and still be facing the correct directions for east bound or west bound traffic as well as allow trains to cross over to exit back out into staging from either loop - flipped the facing of the Concrete Plant at F so that I could extend out some track for the B-9 crossover, brought the closet staging benchwork out to 18", traded the #6 turnouts in the staging for #5 and reorganized the staging into a simple ladder giving me one more staging track, shifted the left hand most crossover in the staging tracks over giving me one staging track clear of any crossovers and making the smallest staging track a good place to run around and move engines (I hope/think?) and finally I highlighted the lift out/pullout section that leads into the main area in yellow (no duck under for me).

    Well folks I think that is all the info this round. Tell me what you think, can't wait to hear back from you all.

    As always: Thank You -ALL- for your time, support and sagely advice.


    Track Plan Info:

    Scale: HO
    Name: Route 66 Railway.
    Locale: Northern Arizona alongside route 66. (In the fictional town of Gila, AZ)
    Period: 1954, late spring to early summer.
    Layout Height: Starting at 50".
    Track: Code 83.
    Turnouts: #6 on Mainline and inside Staging, #5 on industry spurs, #6 ½ curved leading to Staging, #7 ½ curved on Corner Crossovers, # 2 ½ wye on Wye and Industry spur.
    Curve Radii: 28" outside mainline, 26" inside mainline, some curves much broader in other areas- broadest curve in plan 6’ 2”.
    Outer Loop: Eastbound Traffic, Right handed (clockwise) running.
    Inner Loop: Westbound Traffic, Left handed (counter-clockwise) running.
    Industries: A - Scrap Yard, B – Fuel Oil Supplier, C - Shipping Warehouse, D – Bolt and Screw Factory, E – Station, F - Concrete Plant, G – Oil Field/Oil Tanks,
    H – Freight House/Team Track, I - Stock pens, J – Agricultural Co Op, K – Gravel Company.
    Points of Interest: A to C–2 to 13 Town of Gila, J-12 Blue Moon Drive In, G-2 E-2 Ranches.


    [​IMG]

    ( or view at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/BedPlan10b.jpg)

    Peace.
    Coyote

    P.S. I apologize for the large size of the picture.
  5. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2002
    Messages:
    5,718
    Likes Received:
    0
    Last comments! ;)

    I think the addition of the wye to staging is going to be very useful. I also like the addition of the crossover that serves to both get trains from staging to the inner loop sooner.

    Since you have used curved turnouts at C2, would you consider using them in staging to get more space in the storage tracks? The runaround seems very short - you might try pushing the crossover towards the end of the track so that your longest engine can only just escape... That way you'll be able to run around a much longer train.

    The other thing you might consider is a "sector plate". (I have no idea if this is the right term - it just popped into my head...). My friend John has one in his staging area to help with confined space, and it has also saved him some $$$ by not requiring turnouts... Click to see a pic. Click here to see the rest of the layout in progress.

    Andrew
  6. Russ Bellinis

    Russ Bellinis Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Messages:
    4,707
    Likes Received:
    0
    It appears on your drawing that you are using a curved turnout at A-16 in the closet staging. If you moved the two turnouts at C-17 up to hook directly to the turnout at A-16, you would increase the effective length of the staging tracks allowing you to stage longer trains. With you wye leading into the staging yard, you don't really need the run around tracks in the staging yard at all. You could use the wye to turn all trains heading to staging so that they were always backed into the staging yard ready to move forward onto the layout.

    By the way it looks like a nice layout with a lot of operating potential. By the way, it is nowhere near route 66, but there is a town in Az named Gila Bend on I-10.
  7. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Andrew,

    Thank you sir, yes you have been one of many who have pointed out the benefits of rearranging the staging area into more of a Pinwheel Ladder design so I sat down and fiddled with it until I got it into a basic pinwheel (I think) and was still able to keep the track inside my preset clearances. I'll post a pic of the new staging below after my replies. Thank you for this advice it was very helpful.

    Yes sir, Sector Plate is indeed the proper term for that - it would be a Sector Table if the pivot was at the midpoint instead of the end. It’s an interesting idea honestly; I think I'll go back and re-read Iain Rice, he was the one that first heard of Sector Plates and Tables from, it might be worth looking into. Saving money is always a good thing.

    Thanks for the advice!

    Peace.
    Coyote
  8. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Russ,

    Yes sir, I have been sold on making the staging more of a pinwheel ladder set up I'll post a pic at the end of my replies and hope you'll take a look at it and let me know what you think of it. It's not a prefect pinwheel but I was able to get a lot more space and stay inside my clearances.

    Yes there is :) there is also a Gila Crossing and Gila County in Arizona; to tell you the truth I've been considering renaming the town since it has thrown some people I just love the name though but I'm rolling the idea around. I'll let you know if I do.

    Thank you again for the great advice.

    Peace.
    Coyote
  9. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Gang,
    Well it doesn’t take a wall to fall on me to get my attention. Lots of folks have suggested that I change the staging in the closet to more of a pinwheel set up - So I went back and rearranged turnouts to get closer to a pinwheel set up, took a bit to get it all to fit and still be inside my clearance preferences but got it done and gathered a lot more track space for doing it.

    Here it is:

    View attachment 27493
    (larger version can be seen at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/staging.jpg)

    Thanks to all those that suggested it, it was a fine idea. :thumb:

    Peace.
    Coyote

    Attached Files:

  10. 2-8-2

    2-8-2 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2005
    Messages:
    550
    Likes Received:
    0
    :thumb:

    Looks good to me! This is a lot more complicated than my layout design, kudos for putting something like this together! I don't know much about why to use a wye (hehe) or any of that technical stuff, but this looks good to me.
  11. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    2-8-2,

    Thank you. :) Its always great to receive praise from fellow modelers, one of the best feelings in the world!

    As far as Wyes go this should tell you most of what you'd ever need to know about it:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wye_%28railroad%29 :thumb:

    Thanks again for your kind words.

    Peace.
    Coyote

    Coyote
  12. Russ Bellinis

    Russ Bellinis Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2003
    Messages:
    4,707
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is the yard in the closet to be a working yard, or a staging yard? If it is just a staging yard, the use of the run around tracks may be an unnecessary expense; and keeping them clear to use the runarounds will restrict the length and number of trains that can be staged. This isn't criticism, just something to think about. In designing a layout, I think that if something is included for no reason, it should be eliminated.
  13. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Russ,

    Yes Sir, it is just a staging yard. You and several others have made the fine point to me that the run around tracks are probably unnecessary there and I'll be pulling them out of the plan sometimes this weekend.
    I take no offence from your comments at all. I enjoy getting any and all feedback; as I have told others the greatest level of learning I have had in the hobby has been from the advice of my fellow brother and sister modelers. You are spot on that something that has no reason for being included should be removed.


    Thank you for your advice sir. :thumb:

    Peace.
    Coyote
  14. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello All,

    Let me start out by thanking all of those that have taken the time and effort to look at my plans and offer me their advice. It has helped a great deal and means a lot to me. :thumb:
    Thank you.

    Here then is the current plan in toto with all the current changes and revisions.

    Track Plan Info
    • Scale: HO
    • Name: Route 66 Railway.
    • Locale: Northern Arizona, AT&SF Mainline alongside Route 66 between Pinta and Holbrook AZ. (Set in the fictional town of Gila, AZ)
    • Period: 1954, late spring to early summer.
    • Prototype: Atchison, Topeka, and Santa Fe Railroad Company
    • Layout Height: Starting at 50".
    • Track: Code 83.
    • Total # of Turnouts: 34
    • Turnouts: #2 ½ wye on Cattle Wye and Industry spur, #5 on Industry Spurs, #6 on Mainline, #6 ½ curved leading to Staging and into left arm of Staging pinwheel ladder, #7 curved on right arm of Staging pinwheel ladder, #7 ½ curved on Corner Crossovers.
    • Curve Radii: 28" outside mainline, 26" inside mainline, some curves much broader in other areas- broadest curve in plan 6’ 2”.
    • Outer Loop: Eastbound Traffic, Right handed (clockwise) running.
    • Inner Loop: Westbound Traffic, Left handed (counter-clockwise) running.
    • Industries: A - Scrap Yard, B – Fuel Oil Supplier, C - Shipping Warehouse, D – Bolt and Screw Factory, E – Station, F - Concrete Plant, G – Oil Field/Oil Tanks, H – Freight House/Team Track, I - Stock pens, J – Agricultural Co Op, K – Gravel Company, L - Carpentry Company.
    • Points of Interest: A to C–2 to 13 Town of Gila, J-12 Blue Moon Drive In, G-2 E-2 Ranches.
    • N.B.: Lift out/Pullout area to inner area is highlighted in Yellow on the plan below.
    View attachment 27527
    (For a a larger version view at http://mysite.verizon.net/coyote97/s.../BedPlan12.jpg )


    Thanks in advance for your time, comments, critiques and suggestions.

    Peace.
    Coyote

    Attached Files:

  15. santafewillie

    santafewillie Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2002
    Messages:
    243
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice plan for your space. It was interesting to watch the redevelopment along the way. Is there any significance associated with the "Blue Moon Drive In"? Be sure to post some pictures of construction along the way, it's sure to help some others.
  16. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Willie,

    Thank you sir its been a long strange trip indeed. :)

    As for the Blue Moon Drive In - well I have many fond memories of a Drive In that was out on Jacksboro Highway ages ago now - I can't remember the name of it to save my life. Anyway I wanted the layout to have the feel of the 1950's and a Drive In is, for me at least, one of the great 50's images - also in the region of the layout down the road a ways in Winslow AZ was the Tonto Drive In and so it also seemed perfect for the area.

    As to the "Blue Moon" there is a great Drive In Alabama called the Blue Moon Drive In but for us it came as a suggestion from my OL. I was working on the plan and asked her what she thought we should call the Drive In and as we were talking Blue Moon came on the radio and she pointed at it and said "the Blue Moon Drive In" and then made several *cough* "double entendres" about the name and we laughed so hard it just stuck. :)

    I'll be sure to keep the gang updated and take as many pics as possible. The guys are coming Tuesday to lay the new flooring for the train room and I'll be sure to post a few pics of that.

    By the way - don't know if you ever saw it our not but I sent a holler to you on one of the other threads we are both pretty close by - I'm down here in Denton.

    Peace.
    Coyote
  17. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello again,

    Here is the plan as of last night with changes made to lengthen the lift out/ pull out section to protect the track work on it. The lift out / pull out area is highlighted in yellow on the plan.

    [​IMG]

    Thought some of you might also like to see where the line is in real life and what its elevation is.

    The Fictional town of Gila lies between Coronado Junction and Adamana:
    [​IMG]

    Here is the elevation map:
    [​IMG]

    Thought you all might enjoy that.
    Have a great weekend and thanks as always for taking the time to look my stuff over.

    Peace.
    Coyote
  18. zedob

    zedob Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    0
    Nice layout. I noticed your curved crossovers and was wondering if you were planning on handlaying them or trying to use commercially available curved turnouts. Honestly, I think crossovers (not double) would work better in a curve since it eliminates the "S-curve" inherient in straight ones.

    I'm in the same predicament, if you want to call it that, and am planning on using the Central Valley semi handlaid turnouts that can be curved by removing certain tie webs. I haven't used them yet, but was planning on setting up a test module to see how well they work. I was just cureous if you are familiar with them.
  19. grandpacoyote

    grandpacoyote Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2005
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    0
    Zedob,

    On the plan I have them down as Walthers’ code 83 turnouts; however I have been considering hand laying my track. At this point I'm still kicking it around in my head and I'll probably post in the next few days to ask advice and information about hand laying track as I know next to nothing about it.

    I have heard of Central Valley but know very little about them. I'll make a point to check them out, thank you.


    Peace.
    Coyote
  20. zedob

    zedob Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2004
    Messages:
    795
    Likes Received:
    0