Fokker E.ll GPM - Short Build

Discussion in 'Aircraft & Aviation' started by Ben Gal, Mar 8, 2007.

  1. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    I quickly tried Gil's method using an 8-32 machine screw. I wrapped it in wet paper and microwaved it for about a minute. I'm sorry about my thumb - it might need treatment!
    It looks like you could do a few of these at different sizes and cut and paste to make an engine.

    Keith

    Attached Files:

  2. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    I did a bit more using Gil's method. I did a one inch roll on the 8-32 machine screw and then dapped a bit of black water colour on it. After it dried a give it a quick dry brush with some very light grey (as per my plastic days).
    Then I made a cylinder using Richard's design for the Ob-U1 rotary (rolled cylinder method). I gave the rolled design a wash of black.
    The picture shows the rolled cylinder in the upper right and a one inch length of formed cylinder below.
    I need to take this to its conclusion - a finished engine.

    Keith

    Attached Files:

  3. Gil

    Gil Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2004
    Messages:
    1,981
    Likes Received:
    0
    Further Thoughts

    Hi Keith,

    I've thought a little longer on the subject. If you take a flex straw fresh out of the package the flex area is compressed. Pulling at both ends of the straw stretches the section out. The idea here is to do this in reverse to obtain a higher fin per inch count. I haven't tried this yet but it goes something like this; Take the machine screw formed piece and insert it into a tube that is just slightly larger in diameter. Have a rolled piece that fits fairly close to the tube but has walls thick enough to full engage the formed piece. Plunge this down the tube on top of the formed piece to compress the according folds. Pop out a compressed piece. This can now be mounted on an internal cylinder to complete the part. Of course the top and bottom of the machine screw embossed piece needs to be square before starting the sequence.


    -Gil

    P.S. I've convinced myself that this is worth a go..., Results posted here:

    [​IMG]
  4. NULLMOON

    NULLMOON Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    596
    Likes Received:
    0
    i made something very simalar after i cleaned all the little circles out of my hole punch that may work too:grin:
  5. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Nullmoon - the disk way of doing things is something I am trying to work around - see my picture earlier in this post.
    I think Gil's method has the best promise. After a lot of research including the extended Fokker thread last year, I think this is the engine that should be the one used on the E-ll.

    Keith

    Attached Files:

  6. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rotary Engines

    Ben Gal,

    If I´m not completely mistaken, the rotary engines that were use on the E-I, E-II, amd E-III Fokkers were 7-cylinder Oberursel Ur.I.

    This looks like the later 9-cylinder type (Le Rhône, Gnome, Goebel, Oberursel), that was used on machines like the Fokker Dr-I triplane, the D.VI biplane or E.V/D.VIII monoplane.

    Another type was the twin row 14-cylinder type, which was used on the Fokker E-IV.

    Bengt :D
  7. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Rotary Engines

    Ben Gal,

    If I´m not completely mistaken, the rotary engines that were use on the E-I, E-II, amd E-III Fokkers were 7-cylinder Oberursel Ur.I.

    This looks like the later 9-cylinder type (Le Rhône, Gnome, Goebel, Oberursel), that was used on machines like the Fokker Dr-I triplane, the D.VI biplane or E.V/D.VIII monoplane.

    Another type was the twin row 14-cylinder type, which was used on the Fokker E-IV.

    Bengt :D
  8. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Bengt:

    The picture is from an Osprey book on "Early German Aces of World War 1."
    The caption reads . . . ."Wilhelm Fankl is seen with the stripped fuselage of a Fokker E ll or E lll . . . . . . "
    The GPM kit also has a nine cylinder engine in it, so I think this must be OK.

    The real problem I've found is getting information on the E ll (the GPM kit). Everything out there seems to be on the E lll

    Keith
  9. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Bengt:

    The picture is from an Osprey book on "Early German Aces of World War 1."
    The caption reads . . . ."Wilhelm Fankl is seen with the stripped fuselage of a Fokker E ll or E lll . . . . . . "
    The GPM kit also has a nine cylinder engine in it, so I think this must be OK.

    The real problem I've found is getting information on the E ll (the GPM kit). Everything out there seems to be on the E lll

    Keith
  10. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
  11. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
  12. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oberursel 9-cylinder Rotary Engines

    Ben Gal and DrBill,

    I stand corrected. The first Fokker E.I Eindecker had a 7-cylinder rotary engine, which was derived from the Gnôme Lambda 80hp engine.
    From the E.II type and onwards, however, the Oberursel engines that were derived from the Gnôme Monosoupape 100 hp engine all had 9 cylinders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_Eindecker

    So, the Fokker E.II should have a 9-cylinder Oberursel U.I 100 hp engine. It is interesting to note that the cylinders of this engine type are slightly 'thinner' that the later Le Rhône-derived Oberursel Ur.II engines, which were used for example in the Fokker Dr.I

    I´m sorry about the confusion.
    Best regards,
    Bengt :D
  13. Bengt F

    Bengt F Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,399
    Likes Received:
    0
    Oberursel 9-cylinder Rotary Engines

    Ben Gal and DrBill,

    I stand corrected. The first Fokker E.I Eindecker had a 7-cylinder rotary engine, which was derived from the Gnôme Lambda 80hp engine.
    From the E.II type and onwards, however, the Oberursel engines that were derived from the Gnôme Monosoupape 100 hp engine all had 9 cylinders: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fokker_Eindecker

    So, the Fokker E.II should have a 9-cylinder Oberursel U.I 100 hp engine. It is interesting to note that the cylinders of this engine type are slightly 'thinner' that the later Le Rhône-derived Oberursel Ur.II engines, which were used for example in the Fokker Dr.I

    I´m sorry about the confusion.
    Best regards,
    Bengt :D
  14. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know this is getting way OT, but I'll attach an interesting article on the Gnome monosoupape Type N (mainly the more advanced 160hp version, not the 100hp engine that Bengt pointed out as the one adapted to the E.II). It has a nice discussion and detailed images of manufacturing, cylinder cross-sections, fighter installation, operation, etc. The entire rotary concept seems to have gone from ridiculous to sublime, to anachronistic in about 5 years. A real education for me.

    If this isn't the right place for this kind of thing, please let me know and I'll move it. View attachment 10529
  15. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    I know this is getting way OT, but I'll attach an interesting article on the Gnome monosoupape Type N (mainly the more advanced 160hp version, not the 100hp engine that Bengt pointed out as the one adapted to the E.II). It has a nice discussion and detailed images of manufacturing, cylinder cross-sections, fighter installation, operation, etc. The entire rotary concept seems to have gone from ridiculous to sublime, to anachronistic in about 5 years. A real education for me.

    If this isn't the right place for this kind of thing, please let me know and I'll move it. View attachment 10529
  16. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    DrBill

    That kind of article is just what I need to see if I can build someting creditable in paper! There is so much information out there - we just have to find it. Thanks - I don't mind where stuff gets posted as long as I can find it (as my threads show, invariably, I don't :) )

    Keith
  17. Ben Gal

    Ben Gal Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Likes Received:
    0
    DrBill

    That kind of article is just what I need to see if I can build someting creditable in paper! There is so much information out there - we just have to find it. Thanks - I don't mind where stuff gets posted as long as I can find it (as my threads show, invariably, I don't :) )

    Keith
  18. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a lot out there! I usually start with a fairly "tight" Google search and a lookup on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia articles often have really good external links -- in this case, one with an animated view of the rotary engine combustion cycle. Really neat -- I'd never understood how the Otto cycle worked on rotaries until I saw this and had my "aha!" moment. See http://www.keveney.com/gnome.html
  19. DrBill

    DrBill Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Likes Received:
    0
    There is a lot out there! I usually start with a fairly "tight" Google search and a lookup on Wikipedia. The Wikipedia articles often have really good external links -- in this case, one with an animated view of the rotary engine combustion cycle. Really neat -- I'd never understood how the Otto cycle worked on rotaries until I saw this and had my "aha!" moment. See http://www.keveney.com/gnome.html