I thought it would be cool to take a Williams Southern Crecent and convert it to a Flying Scotsman replica. The only problem that I'm having is that it looks like there are two different versions of the real Scotsman. One has these big wing/flap looking things on the front and the other doesn't. Are there two different trains? Which is the prefered version to replicate?
Flying Scotsman
- Thread starter Cannonball
- Start date
OK, after some image research, I would say go with the wings. I think, THINK, those are actually on some Steams to grab air, possibly for cooling. And I am SURE that now that I made that statement, someone will tell us what they are really for
From all the pics, I am guessing they are removable, depending on if they were needed at the time. But, I found more pics WITH those on there, plus, they look cool! Don't forget to rip the headlight off that Crescent, the Scotsman didn't have a light, they didn't require them in the UK at the time it ran...
Great project, keep us posted!
From all the pics, I am guessing they are removable, depending on if they were needed at the time. But, I found more pics WITH those on there, plus, they look cool! Don't forget to rip the headlight off that Crescent, the Scotsman didn't have a light, they didn't require them in the UK at the time it ran...Great project, keep us posted!
The "elephant ears" were used on some steam locomotives for smoke deflectors. The idea was to get the exhaust steam and smoke above cab level. Some smoke deflectors worked well, others did not.
Early steam engines did not have the same problem because they had much higher draft pressures coming out of the stack. But higher efficiency requires a much softer draft, and with the soft draft, the smoke and steam would lay down along the top of the boiler, especially at speed.
Smoke deflectors were much more prevalent in Europe, and to some degree in Canada, than in the U.S., although they were used by some railroads extensively on high end passenger service. Development of steam engines continued much longer in those areas, and smoke deflectors were part of the development process. In the U.S., new technology developments for steam were pretty much halted by the end of the 1930s. If World War II hadn't forced the continued operation of steam in the U.S., dieselization would likely have completed in the 1940s instead of the 1950s.
The difficult part of the kitbash, to me, will be making the drivers look large enough. Lowering the walkways below the top of the drivers, as shown in the photos, will go a long ways towards achieving the look of the Flying Scotsman.
my thoughts, your choices
Early steam engines did not have the same problem because they had much higher draft pressures coming out of the stack. But higher efficiency requires a much softer draft, and with the soft draft, the smoke and steam would lay down along the top of the boiler, especially at speed.
Smoke deflectors were much more prevalent in Europe, and to some degree in Canada, than in the U.S., although they were used by some railroads extensively on high end passenger service. Development of steam engines continued much longer in those areas, and smoke deflectors were part of the development process. In the U.S., new technology developments for steam were pretty much halted by the end of the 1930s. If World War II hadn't forced the continued operation of steam in the U.S., dieselization would likely have completed in the 1940s instead of the 1950s.
The difficult part of the kitbash, to me, will be making the drivers look large enough. Lowering the walkways below the top of the drivers, as shown in the photos, will go a long ways towards achieving the look of the Flying Scotsman.
my thoughts, your choices
Thanks for the input, guys.
If and when this happens, it will be some time off. The William's engine is almost $400 and I'm not sure I want to take the chance of destroying one. I'd love to have a Flying Scottsman that will run O27 Gauge though. Unfortunately, the only one's I've seen are the Hornby OO sets.
If and when this happens, it will be some time off. The William's engine is almost $400 and I'm not sure I want to take the chance of destroying one.
I'd love to have a Flying Scottsman that will run O27 Gauge though. Unfortunately, the only one's I've seen are the Hornby OO sets.
Cannonball, here's a potentially useful link: http://www.lner.info/locos/A/a1a3a10.shtml
I don't know how familiar with british steam, but here's a little overview:
The British had four major railroads:
London Northeastern Railway (LNER) (the railway that had the A1s, A2s, A3s, & A4s)
Great Western Railway (GWR)
Southern Railway
London, Midlands, Scotland (LMS)
If I recall correctly, the labor party issued an Iraq study group/Baker commision style report in 1944 that called for many socialist reforms...including the nationalization of the Railways which I believe occured in 1946. The new national railway was British Rail. British Rail was sold off piecemeal in the late 1990s.
Most of the British steam that survives was actually sitting on scrap lines...many of which was located in Wales. British rail enthusiasts then bought up most of the surviving engines (400 or so).
There were a number of Gresley pacifics that survived...2-3(?) A-2s, 1 A-3 (the flying Scotsman), and 6 A-4s...but no A-1s. There are several famous A-4s that survive...The Mallard...the Dwight D. Eisenhower (in Green Bay, Wisconsin)...the Dominion of Canada (somewhere up in Canada)...the Sir Nigel Gresley. In order to fix the lack of A-1s, a group of steam enthusiasts have been building a new A-1 for a number of years...http://www.a1steam.com/
You can also find some British railway and model railway magazines at really good magazine stands...I frequently purchase Heritage Railway for my dad at Fountain Square News here in Cincinnati.
Two useful modeller sites for detail parts/wagons & carriages:
http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/
http://www.strictline.com/
There are actually quite a few A3 models out there, just not in O-27. Good luck!
I don't know how familiar with british steam, but here's a little overview:
The British had four major railroads:
London Northeastern Railway (LNER) (the railway that had the A1s, A2s, A3s, & A4s)
Great Western Railway (GWR)
Southern Railway
London, Midlands, Scotland (LMS)
If I recall correctly, the labor party issued an Iraq study group/Baker commision style report in 1944 that called for many socialist reforms...including the nationalization of the Railways which I believe occured in 1946. The new national railway was British Rail. British Rail was sold off piecemeal in the late 1990s.
Most of the British steam that survives was actually sitting on scrap lines...many of which was located in Wales. British rail enthusiasts then bought up most of the surviving engines (400 or so).
There were a number of Gresley pacifics that survived...2-3(?) A-2s, 1 A-3 (the flying Scotsman), and 6 A-4s...but no A-1s. There are several famous A-4s that survive...The Mallard...the Dwight D. Eisenhower (in Green Bay, Wisconsin)...the Dominion of Canada (somewhere up in Canada)...the Sir Nigel Gresley. In order to fix the lack of A-1s, a group of steam enthusiasts have been building a new A-1 for a number of years...http://www.a1steam.com/
You can also find some British railway and model railway magazines at really good magazine stands...I frequently purchase Heritage Railway for my dad at Fountain Square News here in Cincinnati.
Two useful modeller sites for detail parts/wagons & carriages:
http://www.justliketherealthing.co.uk/
http://www.strictline.com/
There are actually quite a few A3 models out there, just not in O-27. Good luck!
Either version is correct depending on the period you want to model.
To get some facts on this loco, what better place to visit than our own national railway Museum who the proud owners of the Flying Scotsman.
Head on over to:- http://www.nrm.org.uk/flyingscotsman/factfile.asp
To get some facts on this loco, what better place to visit than our own national railway Museum who the proud owners of the Flying Scotsman.
Head on over to:- http://www.nrm.org.uk/flyingscotsman/factfile.asp
Great links! Thanks again!
Going by the pics from the NRM, it looks like the "fins" were added on in later years. Personally, I think it looked better without them but they do have a practical function.
Going by the pics from the NRM, it looks like the "fins" were added on in later years. Personally, I think it looked better without them but they do have a practical function.
The "German style smoke deflectors" were added by British Railways, post 1948 sometime. They were needed after the loco had a larger blastpipe (chimny) added, and the smoke temded to hang around the boiler.
Flying Scotsman was sold toa private individual with a contract that allowed it to run on the main lines; it was the only steam locomotive allowed for years.
At various times in preservation, different features of Flying Scotsman's past have appeared and disappeared. Several paint schemes, smoke deflectors, a second tenser and, I think, a different boiler. Various howls from purists about these.
I think ACE models makes/made a 3-rail O gauge Flying Scotsman. I'll see what I can find. It probably won't run on O27, nore like O72.
Flying Scotsman was sold toa private individual with a contract that allowed it to run on the main lines; it was the only steam locomotive allowed for years.
At various times in preservation, different features of Flying Scotsman's past have appeared and disappeared. Several paint schemes, smoke deflectors, a second tenser and, I think, a different boiler. Various howls from purists about these.
I think ACE models makes/made a 3-rail O gauge Flying Scotsman. I'll see what I can find. It probably won't run on O27, nore like O72.
O gauge Flying Scotsman
They are available from ACE Trains at http://www.acetrains.com/
price is GBP 685 and they run on 24V DC. (There is a Canadian dealer, Britannia models?, so there must be a North American power pack.)
They are available from ACE Trains at http://www.acetrains.com/
price is GBP 685 and they run on 24V DC. (There is a Canadian dealer, Britannia models?, so there must be a North American power pack.)
That's $1,340.89 USD!60103 said:
Nice find, though. They've got some sweet looking engines. Although my wallet screamed when I looked at the site.
My wife gave the go ahead to get an OO scale for my daughter's set but it will have to wait until after Christmas.
Hornby also made a tinplate version in O. They crop up from time to time on UK Ebay
Also Vectis has a couple in an upcoming auction
http://www.vectis.co.uk/srchrecentaucs.php?search=flying+scot+hornby&bgo.x=15&bgo.y=10
I just looked at enlarged versions of the photo, my apologies, they look nothing like the real thing which was how i remembered them. Memory plays strange tricks as you get older
There are a number of cottage industry kits. Here's one
http://www.ogauge.co.uk/andrews.html
Also Vectis has a couple in an upcoming auction
http://www.vectis.co.uk/srchrecentaucs.php?search=flying+scot+hornby&bgo.x=15&bgo.y=10
I just looked at enlarged versions of the photo, my apologies, they look nothing like the real thing which was how i remembered them. Memory plays strange tricks as you get older
There are a number of cottage industry kits. Here's one
http://www.ogauge.co.uk/andrews.html
That ACE stuff is awesome. I can't wait for my trip to the otherside of the pond this coming March...I can't wait to visit the NRM again! (ironically, my last name is York)
The Hornby O gauge Scotsman was made in the 1930s and is a TOY lacking 2 drivers. I think this was common at the time; Lionel made some locos missing a few wheels.
Keep things straight: the HornbyMecanno company went under in the 60s, was bought by another company which now uses the Hornby name for OO gauge trains. Old Hornby are major collectibles.
Keep things straight: the HornbyMecanno company went under in the 60s, was bought by another company which now uses the Hornby name for OO gauge trains. Old Hornby are major collectibles.
There is no difference between the two pictures you have. The one with the "elephant ears" will probably have a double chimney because the National Railway Museum decorated it for some reason. Poor Flying Scotsman. It has changed hands and apperance god knows how many times through its life. It was originaly a class A1 pacific but it then got modified as an experiment to a class A3 pacific. Then they added the corridor tender. After it was sold from LNER its paint went from that beautiful Doncaster Green to BR dark green. After the BR it was almost scrapped because diesels were taking over then a man named Allan Peglar bought it, restored it back to LNER, added the second water tender because all the water stops were disappearing. After they went on a world tour well US and Australia he sold it to BR again. They repainted the second tender to blue and grey and then donated it to the NRM. Thats how it got to where it was last year. But right now it is undergoing a 5 year rebuild to restore it to original. As for the second water tender, it did not get a happy ending. It was sold to a man who was restoring a Royal Scot. It got cut down and is currently a Royal Scot tender.
Mike14xx said:
I've read up on a lot of what the FS went though since I posted this. It was even stranded in the States for a few years. It's a good thing that the NRM has it now I think. Hopefully they will still let it out on excursion runs now and again but at least it should have a permanent home now.
Aside from being green, there's not much similarity between the two locomotives. In fact, if you were to see the real ones side by side, you'd find the Flying Scotsman would be substantially smaller, thanks to the restrictive British loading gauge.
Well, it's the closest I've seen that wasn't a ready made Scotsman replica and most of those cost an arm and half a leg at least. IF you can find one in decent shape at all. I doubt it's going to happen anyway. As I said, I really don't want to go hacking up a $400 train with my limited modeling experience anyway.Triplex said:
I have a Flying Scot Classic collection train set by Bachmann. I aquired the set about 15 - 20 years ago as a gift. The set includes a 4-6-0 locomotive with 6 wheeled tender and 4 passenger cars. The set also includes oval track, transformer and a great box. This is a great set; the loco operates great and the cars run smooth. I would like to covert it to DCC/w sound but Bachmann hasn't returned any emails. View attachment 33920
Attachments
No offense Southern RR but that is possibly the furthest thing from what we are discussing. Your trainset is of an LMS Royal Scot class while we are talking about LNER A1/A3 Pacific class Flying Scotsman. I will try to attach pictures.
Flying Scotsman
Royal Scot
Flying Scotsman
Royal Scot
Mike14xx said:
Well, there are a few holes actually in that otherwise wonderful account of the 4472's history. After Mr. Pegler brought the train over on it's US tour, due to strained relations between the two countries, a major sponsorship fell through, and he was left footing the entire bill. The IRS siezed the train during the tour or shortly after, and it was stored by the Federal Government at Sharpe Army Depot near Stockton, California. While it was being moved in a special Western Pacific Train (WP U28B #2260 with a wrap around air hose and several old WP gondolas and a caboose to provide air braking due to the trains vaccuum brakes on the end to provide for braking). Two baggage cars for displays were bought by a crooked scrap dealer in Stockton and eventually scrapped after he demanded a ludicrous price for them) and the rest went into storage at the Army base for many years where the cars and displays were pillaged and plundered. The cars were pretty well torn up on the inside. A carman I know saved two of the original cast iron builders plates from the train and I have them now. Eventually the train went back overseas, but the engine was eventually sold to Dr. Tony Marchington of the U.K. who ran the locomotive for many years, including on the "Orient Express". Eventually, a company was formed to care for and operate the engine, but when that didn't pan out, the engine was offered for sale to the public. Virgin Companies' Sir Richard Branson bought the locomotive and donated it to the National Railroad Museum where it is now.