First Model... need help!

Discussion in 'Tips, Tutorials & Tools' started by lgl007, Apr 28, 2004.

  1. lgl007

    lgl007 Member

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    I have been plastic modeling for over 15 years. Recently I ran into an internet article about paper models. So I decided to try one. I bought the 1:33 Halinski P-51D Mustang that has a medium difficulty rating. I have some questions that I hope you all can help me with...

    1) Wow… this is NOT an easy project… are all the instructions in these kits so difficult? Or are there kits that have better picture instructions? (GPM perhaps?)

    2) Many of the paper cut outs have to be glued to 0,5 or 1,0 or 1,5 mm cardboard/paper… where do I get this? I mean paper is not sold in mm thicknesses in Canada? What do you use? Is there a conversion chart from mm to lbs maybe?

    3) There are a number of TEMPLATES at the bottom of page 1 or 2 (can’t remember now I’m at work ;-) and apparently these are to be made of “wire†and specified by 0,3 or 0,8 etc… does this mean 0,3mm or 0,8mm? Is there a conversion chart from mm to gauge maybe or is “wire†sold by mm thicknesses? Oh, and where do you get it?

    4) The canopy is to be made of “FOIL†what does this mean… just clear paper?

    5) The canopy, which is to be made of “FOIL†is in 8 pieces… how the heck do you glue them together so that they look like one piece? Does the UHU glue dry clear? Do I just glue the sides together?

    6) It also states that some pieces, after gluing, are to be “polished†I assume this means “filed downâ€â€¦ so when you make the wheels it has 1,5mm, 2x 1,0mm, and 2x 0,5mm cardboard/paper pieces stuck together… then to get the nice rounded edges of the tires they say to “polish†them or “file them downâ€â€¦ what do you use to file down paper with? A nail file? Sandpaper, if so what kind?

    Thank you all in advance for your help...

    -Greg, Toronto
  2. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Hi

    suggest you download one of NOBI's aircraft he has a couple for freebies these come with instructions in English.

    Then search this site for "Ron" in the list will be several forums that show how to do most everything.

    Barry
  3. cardfan

    cardfan Member

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    Hi Greg,

    Welcome to the group. Not all models come with complicated instructions. Some have very scant instructions :) . Like Barry said, I would also suggest that you download and build some simpler models. There are tons out there and it really helps to get simple techniques down and get the feel of paper types.

    I use poster board and laminate that to make up the 1mm thickness on some parts. There are other methods discussed here. Great reason to dig through the archives.

    I used a clear "frisket" type material for the 1 canopy I put together and used CA glue and the paper frame to bring the whole together.

    I'm still working on the wheels thing myself... :)

    Hope this helps with some of your questions and don't get frustrated.

    Glen
  4. jleslie48

    jleslie48 Member

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    I like to think of scant instructions as a puzzle to be figured out.
  5. lgl007

    lgl007 Member

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    jleslie48,

    Well you are braver then I am... I just don't want to spend a month working on the skeleton to have to make severe changes for the skin to fit right... :(

    Don't get me wrong, I will love the challenge, but for the last 15 years of plastic model making I've only worked on the very best kind... like Tamiya, Hasegawa some odd Eurpean Revell and such... kits that were/are for the most part perfectly designed... I'm pretty much of a perfectionist... hence my questions...

    -Greg
  6. jleslie48

    jleslie48 Member

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    I was too, in the beginning, then I realized with paper, if I didn't like it, I'd re-design, re-size, re-print, re-color,... at will.
  7. damraska

    damraska Member

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    >I have been plastic modeling for over 15 years. Recently I ran into an internet article about paper models. So I decided to try one. I bought the 1:33 Halinski P-51D Mustang that has a medium difficulty rating. I have some questions that I hope you all can help me with...
    >
    >1) Wow… this is NOT an easy project… are all the instructions in these kits so difficult? Or are there kits that have better picture instructions? (GPM perhaps?)

    Fly Model, GPM, and Halinski kits rate about the same for construction diagrams. Polish paper model kits are very much like puzzles. Recently, Halinski started using computer generated graphics (as in the P-51D), which represents both a step forward and a step back. The new construction diagrams generally show individual subassemblies in better detail than ever before, but they often do not reveal how said subassemblies attach to one another.

    You might try a kit from Model Art at http://www.card-models.com. The Model Art kits I own (1:32: Bf 109, P-39, P-40, OV-10) include good instructions (and in English) by card model standards. Artwork generally falls somewhere between GPM/Halinski and older Fly Model Kits. The models come in .pdf format, so you can reprint yourself out of any mistake. I would recommend the 1:33 Bf 109. It features very nice artwork and good instructions though cockpit detail lacks.

    If you can, make a backup of the model before you start. That way, if something goes wrong, you can try again. Unfortunately, the metallic printing of the P-51D precludes this. Study the construction diagrams carefully and start with whatever subassembly makes sense. Build it, put it aside, do another, and repeat. As the remaining part count goes down, I guarantee the overall model will make more sense.

    >2) Many of the paper cut outs have to be glued to 0,5 or 1,0 or 1,5 mm cardboard/paper… where do I get this? I mean paper is not sold in mm thicknesses in Canada? What do you use? Is there a conversion chart from mm to lbs maybe?

    This refers to the physical thickness of the cardboard. You can easily measure this with a decent ruler. You can create any thickness of cardboard by laminating cardstock to cardboard or cardboard to cardboard. Acid free spray adhesive works best for this.

    >3) There are a number of TEMPLATES at the bottom of page 1 or 2 (can’t remember now I’m at work ;-) and apparently these are to be made of “wire†and specified by 0,3 or 0,8 etc… does this mean 0,3mm or 0,8mm? Is there a conversion chart from mm to gauge maybe or is “wire†sold by mm thicknesses? Oh, and where do you get it?

    Yes, 0.3mm and 0.8mm. I do not know the gauge conversion, but someone will. A good plastic model or train hobby shop will sell wire in various thicknesses and lengths for scratch building. Use hard wire! Soft wire, such as that used for flower arrangements, will quickly bend if subjected to any load. For my own models I use whatever wire thickness gets me in the ballpark--I do not worry about an exact match.

    >4) The canopy is to be made of “FOIL†what does this mean… just clear paper?

    Clear plastic. Clear plastic printer sheets for making overhead projections work great. I prefer the ones for laser printers.

    >5) The canopy, which is to be made of “FOIL†is in 8 pieces… how the heck do you glue them together so that they look like one piece? Does the UHU glue dry clear? Do I just glue the sides together?

    In the case of complex curved surfaces, such as the bubble canopy on your P-51D, you can't. If you want a smooth, flawless canopy, you have to vacuform it yourself (using a carefully constructed form made from the template you describe) or buy it. Fortunately for both of us, Gomix makes preformed canopies for just about every Polish card model on the market. In North America, you can get them at http://www.cardmodelers.org/.
    Select the link entitled, "Gomix accessories for card models."

    >6) It also states that some pieces, after gluing, are to be “polished†I assume this means “filed downâ€â€¦ so when you make the wheels it has 1,5mm, 2x 1,0mm, and 2x 0,5mm cardboard/paper pieces stuck together… then to get the nice rounded edges of the tires they say to “polish†them or “file them downâ€â€¦ what do you use to file down paper with? A nail file? Sandpaper, if so what kind?

    I use a big foam nail file to make wheels. Some people put a screw through the center of a wheel, stick it in a rotary tool, and sand it. Start course, end fine. If you dislike making wheels as much as I do, Gomix makes a wide selection of wooden wheels for Polish card models. (The Gomix wheels I ordered for my own P-51s were too thin. Chop them in half and add some cardboard in the center to get the right thickness.)

    Good Luck.

    Doug
  8. lgl007

    lgl007 Member

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    Thanks Doug...

    Thank you very much for the answers Doug... that's exactly what I wanted to know... :D

    Cheers mate...

    -Greg
  9. Darwin

    Darwin Member

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    Just a couple of quick comments to add to Doug's. You will reach a 0.5 mm thickness by laminating two pieces of 110 lb card stock. You will get 1 mm by laminating 90 lb card stock to "poster board" as available in the stationery sections of about any major supermarket these days. 1.5 or 2 mm is about equal to the thickness of matting material as found in any picture framing shop, or two thicknesses of posterboard. If on a really tight budget, the cardboard used for cerial boxes or soda pop 12-packs and 24-packs is about 1 mm. I've noticed that carton-type cardboard tend to preferentially curl in one direction when drying after laminating the part sheet to it. To help combat that, put the laminated sheets in a "press" while drying(like between two heavy books, ala preparing botanical specimens for mounting in a scrapbook). If laminating more than one layer of cardboard, alternate the orientation of the cardboard from one layer to the next (i.e., for cerial box cardboard, place printed side against printed side, unprinted side against unprinted side. Also be aware that cardboard and especially paper have a grain, the direction of which can be found by tearing it. Tears "with the grain" will be fairly straight and even. Tears "across the grain" will be curved and ragged. The grain is what usually causes bowing of the part when drying. When laminating, determine direction of the grain and orient the layers so that the grain direction alternates (vertical/horizontal) from one layer to the next.

    I agree that you jumped directly into the deep end with your first model choice. I would recommend downloading some of the freebies from FiddlersGreen.net and building them, then try one or two of Kancho's or Merek's 1:50 scale kits (available from Teuton.org/dbarnett), or a couple of the PModel kits (available as electronic downloads from Spishop...look in the links section of this site). Paper models can be a rough transition coming from plastic media...much easier transition coming from stick-and-tissue background.
  10. bwallaw

    bwallaw Member

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  11. lgl007

    lgl007 Member

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    Thanks so much for your replies... you have all been extremely helpful. I hear you all about doing an easier model first but I'm not going to even try it. Things that don't look "perfect" to me are not worth doing... I just can't keep myself interested in non-detailed models... I have no idea why. Yes the P-51D is a bit tough but it's certainly not extremely difficult. I have received the English instructions from the wonderful people at www.halinski.com so that will help quite a bit.

    I have now had a chance to study the plans for few hours and I am getting more and more confident about the project. I think the key is ... one step at a time... I was getting way ahead of myself trying to get my brain to work through the entire project... that's a no no in my book with this project... I think it'll be best for me to do one step at a time.

    Thanks again guys... I'll keep you posted on the progress.

    -Greg
  12. Darth_Nerdious

    Darth_Nerdious New Member

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    I also became interested recently in paper models. I was impressed with some paper aircraft I've seen, but they scare me a lot, much in the same way those paper gothic cathedrals do...

    My first project will be this castle model, the very one which sparked my interest! I saw this one last year when attending a plastimodelism convention! It's simple and look good.

    http://www006.upp.so-net.ne.jp/zen/P_Craft/MatsumotoCastle_Download.html

    If you haven't found the following link yet, maybe you'll want to take a look:

    http://www.saturn.dti.ne.jp/~eastern/pcraft/index.html

    They're far from perfect but I think they will look good on my desk, and if the maid destroy something when cleaning it won't be a tragic loss!

    Darth
  13. tino

    tino Member

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    Hi lgl007,
    I have p 51 D from halinski and halinski is the best and the hardest to build.
    Can send me by mail the english instructions.

    Regards
    Diamantino
  14. lgl007

    lgl007 Member

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    Darth_Nerdious: Yes, quite a nice paper model of an ancient Japanese Castle... very nice indeed... ;-)

    Tino: I don't understand... you would like a copy of the English instructions? If so, just give me your e-mail address and I'll e-mail them to you. Halinski sent them to be in .pdf format via the net.

    -Greg
  15. tino

    tino Member

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    lgl007,
    My e-mail is diamantinoh@clix.pt or just clic on the bottom of my message were says email.
    I send some private messages for you, sorry the mess.
    Regards,
    Tino :oops:
  16. Ajax

    Ajax Member

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    Do you recommend a specific brand of 90 lb card stock that you use to get to 1mm when combined with poster board? Unfortunately, I discovered that it takes 2 sheets of 67 lb Wausau Bristol + a layer of poster board to make it to 1mm and I'm not keen on trying a triple lamination...

    Also, I noticed that the Card Modelling FAQ had this to say about spray adhesives:

    http://www.cardfaq.org/faq/tips.html#s3.14

    What are people's thoughts on spray adhesives?

    A.J.
  17. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    A.J.

    Use 3M "77" spray adhesive. Nothing I've sprayed with this adhesive has ever fallen apart.

    Best, Gil
  18. Sticky Fingers

    Sticky Fingers Member

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    Lately I've been trying a technique of using multiple layer of manilla folder stock laminated together with spray adhesives (mostly the off store brands, I'm too cheap to pay the 7 or 8 bucks they want for Super 77 around my area). One advantage to this is one can build up different thicknesses of stock for different applications. I have noticed some seperation of the plies especially if i have to sand edges and the tool being used catches an edge. One thing i have been doing is to run a bead of cyano down the exposed edges of the laminations. I haven't been doing this all that long and not realy attest to its long term viability nor do I think that I am the first peson to come up with this technique pictures in the gallery section
  19. bwallaw

    bwallaw Member

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    I've been using 3M Photo Mount Spray Adhesive to do my laminating. I have no long term history, though, to vouch for the permanance of this product. The can promises permanently, with exclamation point!.

    I have also used CA along the edges of laminated parts :D , particularly if they are hidden beneath a hull or wall. It makes them almost plastic-like and makes filing or sanding much easier and accurate.

    I have done some triple laminating. I built up a 1mm thickness by layering the part on 67-70# stock to 2 plys of Bristol board. The thickness looks close (measuring by ruler) and the pieces fit well in construction. I prefer Bristol over cardboard because it seems more rigid when you need to cut thin strips. Cardboard get real mushy and the layers start to separate when I cut it thin. CA could help, I suppose, but I prefer the texture of Bristol.

    Time will tell if the whole thing peels apart. :shock:
  20. Ajax

    Ajax Member

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    Thanks for all the input, guys!

    After removing the books this morning, I have yet another failed attempt at laminating with Elmer's Glue-All. :( The glue always seems to cause some visible distortion on the surface of the sheet of Bristol. I've also tried Elmer's No-Run School Gel, and found, while it leaves the Bristol with no indication of its having been glued, the laminated whole wants to begin curling as soon as the weights are removed.

    Peeling or no peeling, I do believe I see a spray adhesive in my future! ;) :D

    A.J.