Black Panel lines and rivet heads...

Discussion in 'General Card Modeling' started by wunwinglow, Feb 17, 2007.

  1. wunwinglow

    wunwinglow Active Member

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    Black Panel lines and rivet heads...

    Sturdy style icon, or utter abomination.

    Discuss.

    Tim
  2. paper warrior

    paper warrior Member

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    Long as it adds detail I see no problem with it.
  3. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Panel lines

    They seem a bit over the top and appear to be fashionable in real life if you could see them that clearly it would mean they had all popped sort of in the league of glossy battleships.

    But hey they are cleverly done I certainly prefer them to white details on dark blue now that does look odd.

    I wish I was clever enough draw the actual wavy panel effect that exists on Spruances' hanger side for instance in the right light you can see the distortion curves between the ribs. I have enogh trouble getting the hanger to the right size.

    Maybe some more subtle shading and then again maybe I am talking c**p as usual.
  4. Willja67

    Willja67 Member

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    I guess it's all in the application. I remember in a advanced drawing class i took in college as a pre-req for oil painting the instructor pointed out the places where the detail was left out and how our eyes and minds naturally fill in the detail. Perhaps if detail isn't there in some instances we do miss it or if there is not enough detail it's noticeable.

    As for the white rivets on dark blue that Barry mentioned I find that comment somewhat odd as that is really more accurate than black panel lines on blue surfaces. In the course of designing my Corsair I looked at lots of pics and frequently around the rivets and fasteners and panel lines the paint had worn away around the edges leaving bare metal and it looks white at first glance. Granted anything can be overdone but I guess my point in all this is it's application specific.
  5. barry

    barry Active Member

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    panel lines

    OK Will I will give you that one mate but gray would be nearer !!
  6. Willja67

    Willja67 Member

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    Just remembered this pic that I took that made me decide to do black panel lines:

    [​IMG]
  7. barry

    barry Active Member

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    Will

    The Corsair looks wonderful wish I was skilled enough to build it (let alone design it) ...........and anyway look at the struggle with slab sided ships to give them some life I don't have the skill maybe a few panel lines would help there I did try but they looked more like girders my computer has a right struggle at 300 dpi never mind 600 dpi.................
  8. Bowdenja

    Bowdenja Active Member

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    Hey these are MODELS.............. they suppossed to give the illusion of the real thing.

    If black lines or white on blue rivets help give the model the illusion of reality then hey........ that's what it is suppossed to do.

    We all have seen those......... what do you see, fool the eye/mind pictures. That's what a model is suppossed to do give the mindseye the perception of the real thing.

    Like everything else in life................... too much is not a good thing.
  9. wunwinglow

    wunwinglow Active Member

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    Will, I think your pic shows something of what I was getting at. The pic was taken by someone at least leaning his eldows on the rear spar, if not actually standing on the wing! I bet if you asked that guy in the background, with the blue hat and the broomstick in his trousers, (!) I bet from that distance he couldn't even see the panel lines, let alone consider what colour they were. Maybe those dzus fasteners, maybe the soot from the exhaust stacks, maybe the apparent edges where the panelling changes line. I would of course conceed wear and tear from panels frequently moved, especially on combat-worn machines, but I feel that generally panel lines on some paper models are WAAAAAY to stark, and WAAAAAY too wide. Unless you are peering into the cockpit, ie are viewing the whole model, your scale viewing distance is going to be dozens of meters, hundreds if it is a ship, and I think the starkness of some panel-lining detracts from the overall impression of the model. Which is a great shame when the rest of the model is top notch. If and ever I get around to actually finishing a design, I'm going to make sure the lines are as fine as I can print them, and just a couple of shades different to the surrounding colour.

    Kinda painted myself into a corner here, haven't I!!?? I'd better get something finished....

    There are of course plenty of model designs where the colouring is deliberately flat and clean, almost cartoon-like, and this format perhaps suits the harsh outline presentation better.


    Tim

    PS Rhino v4 goes live! Wahoo!
  10. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    Trompe-l'œil

    This is the Wikipedia definition of an art technique that's been around since the Renaisance. An interesting point in art that made a lasting impression was the use of Prussian Blue for shadows instead of shades of grey. Try it next time you decide to do a panel line with a "drop shadow". It really does work...,

    -Gil
  11. barry

    barry Active Member

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    prussian blue

    Gil

    What is the RGB value for Prussian blue ?:confused:
  12. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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    From the Archives

    Tim,

    Remember this?

    -Gil

    [​IMG]
  13. Gil

    Gil Active Member

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  14. barry

    barry Active Member

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    thank you
  15. Willja67

    Willja67 Member

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    Barry,

    From what I have seen your models look pretty good. There is a big time difference I think in getting the geometry exact and getting the right "feeling"
    or "soul" of the model or whatever you wish to call it and I think you do a pretty good job at that from what I have seen. Also as far as my "skill" is concerned after 2 years of fiddling with that Corsair in autocad with no 3d help I couldn't even get the fuselage sections right. I love Rhino. Without it I'm a bona fide hack.

    Tim,

    I am forced to concede a point here to you. This is still really close to the plane but I can see here how hard it is to even see the splits around the flaps and ailerons. I'm going to have to experiment with that Prussian blue.

    [​IMG]
  16. lizzienewell

    lizzienewell Member

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    Dun' know. I'm more interested in getting the basic shapes and structures than in texture and rivets, but then the stuff I've modeled is either made out of futuristic composite or of welded aluminium.
  17. wunwinglow

    wunwinglow Active Member

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    Gil, yes, I think that is about right. Metal finishes look more 'panely' due to the changes in colour and sheen of the metal, which is sometimes quite dramatic. Fasteners show, but the panel lines themselves are often reflections, not shadows or dirt.

    http://propel.dk/images/FLY/f86.jpg

    Here, grubbyness around the engine cowlings is evident, and a little 'quilting' where panels don't quite line up and the reflection is different, but no black lines or rivets. And the Sea Fury is definitely riveted together!!

    http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/camm_sea_fury_FB11_1_1000.jpg

    Tim
  18. barry

    barry Active Member

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    panel lines

    I remember that picture well Gil however you need to be a pretty good artist to start with. Using water colour I could probably make a stab at it but I find paint mixing electronically a bit alien. Not too bad on rust and that's another story again.

    I was throwing out my birthday cards and I found this which is rather showing Will's ideas quite well, a sort of working plane without the glass racing finish. Strangely it suggests showing the rivets not the lines.

    Attached Files:

  19. cardmodeler

    cardmodeler Member

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    I am sitting here looking at my Halinski P-40E kit and it seems to me that the designer of this one has done a very good job of representing panel lines and rivets. The panel lines don't stick out like they were drawn on with a marking pen like some I have seen; they are more subtle and drawn with very fine lines. I think the rivets are well done, also, especially on the underside of the wings. Back when I was building plastic planes, I always thought the "pros" were overdoing the panel line/rivet thing. As someone stated earlier, it's a matter of scale. If you are viewing a 1/48 scale model from a distance of 12 inches it's actually a scale distance of 48 feet. What does the real thing look like from that distance? I say strive for capturing the essence of the thing being modeled and don't labor over too much detail. Then again, whatever floats your boat.
  20. thewoodengraver

    thewoodengraver Active Member

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    Are you asking about painting rivets or modeling them?
    Are you modeling after a "new" machine or a beaten, tattered used one?
    Is it daytime or nighttime?
    Are you close or far away?
    Is the subject inside or outside?

    Too many undeclared variables!

    Here's my .02;
    Don't paint the rivets at all.
    print a mirror image rivet template on paper, tape to backside of your part, use a ball point pen (WITH ink) and rotate with slight pressure at each rivet mark on your template. One half turn creates a small rivet, one full turn creates a larger rivet. The light takes care of the rest. Take a bow...
    (applause! Cheers! coins dropping!!! Fireworks!!!!)