An interesting B&O box car of 1867

Discussion in 'Scratchin' & Bashin'' started by modelsof1900, Sep 27, 2005.

  1. doctorwayne

    doctorwayne Active Member

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    Nice to see you back again, Bernhard. With all the work that you've accomplished on this car, it's no wonder that we've not heard from you for a while. As usual, very meticulous work. I look forward to seeing the next installment.

    Wayne
  2. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    After the raw work was done now I need a few more time for finer additions.
    Ladders, roofwalk, the first "iron" fittings.

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    As next the doors must follow, doors for opening?

    Bernhard
  3. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

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    Great work... and now there seems to be two of them...! ;)

    Andrew
  4. Art67

    Art67 Member

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    Bernhard,

    Your models and attention to detail are outstanding. Truly inspirational stuff - thank you for sharing.

    Stuart
  5. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Thanks for your compliments!
    It's nice your friendly replies and I must say, this is the special feeling with this forum. You get an answer or you get an opinion. Thanks!

    Yes, I started with one model that 'll get the old time trucks pictured in first shots here. A friend asked for the model and I could not say "no". He repowered and regeared all my locos and so he'll get the second model. Unfortunately I must use Kadee arch bar trucks for second model. I think you know all the differences, Kadee's are more for the 1900 era and the trucks have had a many shorter wheel base in 1867 and after. So I build one car with the old trucks and second with Kadee trucks.
    When you go back to pictures where the frame is upside, you can see the differences at car bolsters.

    Bernhard



  6. doctorwayne

    doctorwayne Active Member

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    I'm glad to see that you're back with more on these cars, which are really taking shape. It's no wonder that your friend wanted one of them. I'm looking forward to seeing your next progress report.

    Wayne
  7. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    I know last new info of my modelling project is long time back. But now I'm retired and I will finish this project in two or three months.

    I must write for my apology also that I must made five or six attempts finding the simplest and accurate working door construction. I think a brass model is a more compact and solid item. There I can work with small dimensions creating a door sliding surely in the profiles.
    But a working door made from wood and fixed in a wood frame? There are a few small differences in measurement of frame and my pre-aged model does not make the problems smaller. I must note that I had to realize very simple solutions receiving a good working door mechanism.
    I think I found a practice solution using these small eyes gliding on a steel wire which I mounted and bolted on the door frames. Because the “mechanism” is mounted behind a faceplate, nobody see the details that are rails and rolls mounted in steel hangers at the big railroad for easily moving of door. I think also that I have found a timely correct solution than I must remember, the car was built in original in 1867.
    It should not be a surprise that the doors also look in an more or lesser aged condition.

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    Doors no. 25 to 29 – four of them are in use now.

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    Parts of the door hardware.
    After I have made the left shot I have seen that a few of the gliders must be scrapped. I needed the photo with the high detailing in order to see all the small inaccuracies.

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    The doors with full mounted hardware are connected with the gliding wire.

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    And after mounting - you can open and close them!

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    See you that models have got small closing devices? Sorry, I don't add padlocks.

    And if someone would like to check the correctness of the hardware detailing - I have purchased shortly a reprint of the book "Railway Car Construction - The definitive work on American car building practice circa 1892". A book with more than 200 illustrations of that era and 1000 ideas for my modelling jobs.

    If you are interessted in two more pictures - "nailed" roofwalk:

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  8. steamhead

    steamhead Active Member

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    Yoowwssaaa...!!! That's what I call model building...!!! I'd never run across this thread before. Awesome work...!!! :thumb:

    Would you have a picture of the tiny blacksmith that made your tiny hardware...??? :D

    Keep up the most excellent work...!
  9. doctorwayne

    doctorwayne Active Member

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    I agree; nice work on the hardware, Bernhard, and a neat idea for working doors. Are you using music wire for the roofwalk nails? This installment has been well worth the wait, and I look forward to seeing the next.
    By the way, Bernhard, congratulations on your retirement.balloon6

    Wayne
  10. steamhead

    steamhead Active Member

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    Check the detail on the roofwalk where two boards butt together...There a double row of nails where the rest have only a single row,,,,Superb work...!!!
  11. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Thanks Gus and Wayne for your friendly comments.
    Thanks also to you Wayne for wishes of my retirement.
    I'm hoping now really to have time for modelling each day and a few more projects are in preparation. I hope also they should be for a public interrest again.

    @Wayne,
    I'm using a few of different wire materials. Steel and music wire are more the exception. This material is too hard for most cases.
    For "nailing" here and for many other parts I use nickel silver wire. Unfortunately it is not available in thinner dimensions as 0,3 millimeters (0,012 inches) here in Germany.
    Modelling the small locking latches (?) (the small 8) I must use a thinner wire and here a had only thin brass wire for use. That is unfortunaltely a very soft material, but to made them from steel wire again - I could not form them because the heavy sprung power.
    Last, the gliding wires for doors are made from steel again, here I needed the strong quality of that material.

    And a note for Gus yet.
    Sorry, the blacksmith is too large for the modelling photos, he has a high of 8 1/2 feet. But I have made a picture of his finger with one of the small parts which are used for guiding the doors at the bottom. Also these parts are bolted to the frame and I added before a small head to a short piece of nickel silver wire. So I get a solid connection of brass with wood only by such nails/bolts. Gluing alone gives not a durable hold.

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    I think a good finger print for using in FBI files.

    After I have taken this shot the small part jumped off and nobody has seen it again. It was my last!
  12. steamhead

    steamhead Active Member

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    Sorry to hear about the loss of that little piece....What diameter are those little holes..?? How do you (or the blacksmith) make them?? I have a hard time using a 1/32" drill....
    Wonderful work,,,!!!
  13. steamhead

    steamhead Active Member

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    I jst visited your gallery. Did you make the flat cars and the loads in those pictures?? They're absolutely amazing...!!!
  14. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Gus,

    yes, cars and loads are built all byself and if you are interessted to see my older threads, then click these links:

    - Wabash rr. heavy load flat car #20006
    - An addition to Wabash #20006
    - Wabash rr. heavy load flat cars - a third time
    - Sorry - no further Wabash flat cars

    or also

    - A nice Atlas wood reefer ???

    Back to B&O models.
    The small door guiding parts are made from a T-shaped brass profile, where I reduced high and thicknes if flanges to the wished dimensions. The holes have a diameter of 0.3 millimeters, that are 0.012 inches or circa 3/256" if last date is a usable value for you.
    It's right, I must use very sharp drills only and if I can't hold the small drill engine absolutely in drill direction than the drill is cracked and I must build a new part in most cases also. There are a few problems building such small parts but I would miss them without these details.


    PS. Pictures of thread "A nice Atlas wood reefer ???" are visible again.
  15. bigsteel

    bigsteel Call me Mr.Tinkertrain

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    that is one of the most detailed handbuilt models ive ever seen!i just might have to try my hand at custom cars someday.
  16. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Bigsteel,

    thanks for your acknowledgment.

    But I must say also, I have seen a log loader built from a friend. It's built in 0-scale for his planed On3 timber railroad, a really phantistic work. That should you see! In all respects it is a many more detailed model than I'm building. I hope to get pictures of this model so that I can show it here in Scratchin' & Bashin' forum.
  17. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Needing your help

    I think that my models are in good progress, but new pictures ‘ll come in two or three week when also truss rods are finished and mounted.

    That what I urgently need are HO scale hexagonal NBWs made by Detail Associates (part no. 102203 - brass). These parts are out of production and Walthers has cancelled this from its files. A question to Detail Associates has not brought a reaction.

    Who owned such NBWs and who can sell them please? Parts and shipping will paid immediately by PayPal. Your parts would be a great help for finishing of these models and my next planed modelling jobs. Thank you very much!

    My last modelling problem is finding the right lettering type for B&O cars built in 1867.

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    These four sketches are attempts in order to find the right lettering for the cars. I have here in Germany a good decal maker so that I can let to make my own decal sets.
    - First of all is drawn after an old two axle gondola of 1835. I think this to old and it does not represent my modelling time of 1867. The white lettering background is added by mine.
    - Second sketch is made after a steel boxcar that was built after 1900 and I think that this lettering is too modern.
    - The third sketch including the white lettering field is drawn after pictures of 1880 or 1890 era and I think that this should be the right type for my models.

    What do you think about this? Unfortunately I don’t own books with especially B&O information or roster pictures.
    And a last question of particular interest. Which numbers could have had these cars? I know that a B&O roster of that time isn’t available because burning the old B&O roundhouse in 19??.

    I would be lucky for all your answers and discussion.

    Bernhard
  18. MasonJar

    MasonJar It's not rocket surgery

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    Bernhard,

    You do some great work! I like the first set of lettering, and I do not think it too old for your timeframe. However, I think that many North American modellers would relate it to "Old West" themed railroadin', rather than a sizable midwest, 1870's road. The third set is very nice, and plausible for 1870s to 1890s, in my (non-professional) opinion ;).

    Perhaps the B&O historical society or museum could answer some of your specific questions?
    http://www.borhs.org/
    http://www.borail.org/index.shtml


    Andrew
  19. modelsof1900

    modelsof1900 Member

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    Thanks, Andrew.

    I have a posted a short info to the B&O Yahoo-group and I hope I can get an answer by the members. I 'll like to get an info here.

    Bernhard
  20. pjb

    pjb Member

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    Trucks and Typefaces

    Saw your message on B&O YAHOO site where I am also a member. This is nice work, in a period earlier than which I model. Notwithstanding,there are earlier model trucks in existence than
    KADEE produces. Unfortunately, the 'HO' scale models of four
    wheel wood frame trucks consistent with the era of this model
    are not currently in production. In one case because the maker
    is out of business (the original CENTRAL VALLEY company,
    no longer exists and apparently neither does the dies and
    tooling related to their excellent 19th century product line),
    and in the other because the last owner died (Bill Cook of
    BC MODELS), and the current purchaser of the line has not
    been able to make the goods involved.
    You should be aware that there are two large dealers in
    old kits (for both the collectors and those wishing to
    operate metal and wooden kits not found elsewhere).
    These are JAY'S TRAINS, and NIXON ENTERPRISES that
    have websites that you can GoogleUp easily. I glanced through
    their site, which in the case of Nixon's is somewhat confusingly
    laid out since they are too lazy to create enough separate
    categories of merchandise (e.g. so some craftsman kits
    and metal trucks wind up thrown in with the Oriental brass
    imports). However, people who want an old RED BALL
    flat car kit for instance, will find their way through the maze.
    JAY says that these trucks keep changing so giving him a call
    and telling what you want, can be the best way to go. He also
    might be able to tell you if he has an old kit with them on it.
    That is an expensive way to go, but is an option.
    Here is basic history of the model trucks you seek, as they
    can appear with differing marques. The most commonly
    available were first produced by M.Dale Newton (interestingly,
    in the same town that the KADEE line started in). He called
    his products the RED BALL line and sold it in 1956 to
    Howell Day in Dunellen, New Jersey. THis is the same
    gentleman that the NMRA's model train museum in
    Chattanooga is named for. He sold the equipment that
    he made under the RED BALL name, for the most part,
    and also imported brass locos from asia that used the
    same marque, but he also sold some of the RED BALL
    products under his own name. Ultimately after more than
    twenty years he sold the line to a school teacher in Roanoke
    Indiana, who did not buy the bulk of the trucks from
    Day ( I don't know why, all he took were a unique six
    wheel freight car that went with a battleship gondola
    and some old time trucks). The others were bought and
    marketted under the CAPE LINE marque by a Massachusan.
    In Indiana where RED BALL goods were made, lots happened
    over the years including the making of structure kits
    under the HOME TOWN and WABASH VALLEY label, and
    the production of plastic freight cars under the CANNONBALL
    CAR SHOPS marque. Lots of stuff, but no organization and
    under capitalization so this was a desultory business.
    Bill Cook bought the old metal and wood kit line , when the
    teacher owner went into a panic over lead in his models
    and did a good job (as BC MODELS)until illness caught up
    with him. So what you want can be available in several
    names from across the years.
    Since you are an excellent modeller, and may be able to
    rework a kit to backdate it allow me to give you the
    names of several makers of excellent metal wheeled
    trucks that include a number of arch bar and other style
    trucks that are earlier than the KADEE offerings.
    RIO GRANDE MODELS makes a number of arch bar
    narrow gauge (HOn3) that can be used as a basis
    for shorter wheel base, early trucks.
    STEAM ERA MODELS includes several such trucks
    and offers spoked wheel sets that are not available
    elsewhere and also RP25-80 as well as standard
    RP25 fustum wheels.
    BETHLEHEM CAR WORKS likewise has some
    candidates and come with metal RP25 wheels.
    AR KITS has some kits with potential for modification
    but have no as built substitutes for the 1860s.
    All of these firms have Web presences with pictorial
    representation of their products.

    In another vein , barrel cars (a/k/a barrel boxes: which
    is an exceptionally long lived slangword being used for
    highway trailers associated with the household moving/
    furniture business < Removals to Brits> today), were
    commonly open cars. They had roofs and side frames
    to help contain the barrels. Barrells, implicitly were all
    weather containers. Perhaps, something about the
    quality of the flour barrels in use required an enclosed
    car, or perhaps they were used for whiskey or some
    other product that needed to be kept secure from two
    legged vermin. In any event, the last of the open barrel
    cars were made in 1937 for ETHYL corporation to carry
    petroleum based chemicals in steel drums.
    Ye OLDE HUFF 'N PUFF models makes a model of an
    'HO' scale barrel car of the more traditional 19th
    century car designed to deliver cooperage to customers.
    You may be interested in the EATON box car which was
    patented Jan. 1, 1867. It is among the first all metal
    box cars, and featured an internally mounted (to side
    walls and ends) series of continuous half bands (letter
    'C's in horizontal attitude) designed to hold barrels in
    upright position. It is U.S. patent number 60865, and
    met with limited success. However, the B&O had an
    earlier all metal car, and Vanderbilt's Lake Shore had
    a fleet of them for gun powder carriage built during the
    Civil War. The last of those got away from us in the
    1930s when the Nashville, Chattanooga, and St. Louis
    which had been using them in work train service
    scrapped them. Too bad, for it was an artifact from
    another time that can't be duplicated.
    Nevertheless, Richard Eaton's car was a milestone
    engineering wise, so it is worth looking at. Patents
    are readily available by throwing, "Google Patents"
    into your search engine or using the US patent office
    site. He displayed a depth of understanding of the
    needs of shippers, and the technological capability
    of his time which is remarkable, and also somewhat
    unique among inventors.
    If you intend to continue to model in the era we are
    considering here, let me suggest that you join the
    YAHOO group : "Early Rail "; that covers everything
    from the beginning of railroads through 1920. You
    will find far more people there than on the B&O group
    familiar with period.
    Hoping this will be of help to you and
    Good-Luck, Peter Boylan