Laser printing vs ink jet printing

[cgutzmer]

Shhh, don't tell anyone - I printed a model at work on the laser printer to see how it worked out.....

I printer the one of the Yamaha bikes and it printed out great! Only problem was when I folded the pieces the ink tended to flake off at the crease. Has anyone else encountered this? Don't tell anyone that I tried on a different type of laser printer at work (one xerox one Minolta) and had the exact same problem. I printed photo quality on heavyweight paper 44 lb for one 67 for the other. I never run into this problem on my ink jets at home.

Is this a problem with all laser printers? How do those of you that use laser printers get around this (if you have experienced it) I also see it fairly frequently where people take their Internet downloads in for "professional" laser printing - is this any different? I think that both of the laser printer types at work use solid ink that melts (however I am not certain on that)

Thoughts?
Thanks,
Chris

[rickstef]

Laser printers fuse the toner to the paper, and then when manipulated, will flake off(being scored and folded)
also, the toner is dry, a powder.

whereas the inkjets use a liquid, and we all know what happens when paper gets wet, it soaks in.
exactly what an inkjet does

as for the wax based prints, they hold up a little better, mainly because the wax has some flexibleness to it, but you need to make sure that the tabs you are trying to glue are clear of wax, or the pva glue will have a hard time sticking, some of the solvent based glues and I know CA, won't have a problem too much with gluing tabs with some wax toner on them.

Rick

[milenio3]

I've printed some black and white models at the office. The printer, HP1000 series, has a very good resolution on cardstock paper... but even scoring the model will flake off! As Rick says, it is powder. So after the printing I give it a couple of Krylon Crystal Clear coats.

I've never tried color laser. But I've printed on transparency (for the Galileo Space Craft antenna), and I had to work it VERY careful, as it trends to flake off too.

B&W models may work, but it depends on how to prepare the printed cardtock paper afterwards.

[cgutzmer]

When you buy a kit, what kind of printing is that?
Chris

[Stev0]

4 color ink printing.

An image for press is divided into the 4 print colors and variations of Cyan, Magenta, Yellow and Black known as CMYK. Each color is separated onto a film like transparency which shows the amount of that color by translucency.

The film is then used to 'burn a plate' by aligning the film on a chemically treated thin metal band. The chemical is burned off the plate by allowing light through the transparency film. The chemical that remains allows ink on the press to be passed onto a sheet via pressure.

Combining plates produces the various colors. A run of a plate is done until all of one of the prime colors is finished. The machine is cleaned and the next plate is run on the same sheet (hopefully after the previous plate's work is dry). Sheets are randomly checked for registration which is why when you see something 'out of register' it's because one of the plates slightly ran out of alignment and the pressman was'nt paying attention.

The color is applied via thin metal plates.

[lizzienewell]

Steve has described offset printing which how big print run commercial printing is done. I've heard of some equipment that will do offset printing with small print runs but I don't know much about it.

I used a color HP laser printer for my models for several years. I got around the flaking problem by spraying it with artist's fixative, clear coat, or spray acrylic (Krylon Crystal Clear) The usually advantage of laser printing is that it's faster and so suitable to medium quantities of printing at a low price. For highest quality go with an inkjet printer using pigment ink(Epson Ultrachrome K3). I still spray it with Crystal Clear. For photos I use Epson's expensive coated paper. For model I use ordinary acid free cardstock. The coating on the paper makes for crisp photos but a creates a fragile surface. I like the ink to soak in a bit.

Right now I have two printers. For writting I have a Brother Laserjet (HL-5140). It does black-and-white cheap and fast. For models and photos I have a Epson Stylus Photo R2400. It's expensive for both the ink and the paper, but is supposed to be the best for archivability.

--Lizzie

[Jacobs40K]

I have had the same flaking experience with laser printers and copiers as well. I have access to many here at work. Thankfully, I also have access to a few inkjet printers.

Anyways, I find that I have to spray a sealer on the print, usually a couple of mist coats.

[rowiac]

If you spray the laser print with Krylon Crystal Clear as Lizzie suggests, the clear coat dissolves the toner a little bit and seems to fuse it better to the paper. The sharp color edges may get a bit fuzzy, but you end with a durable surface.

You might also try checking the paper type settings in your print setup screen. I don't know about the Xerox or Minolta printers, but the HP 4550 Color LaserJet we have at work has a "card stock" setting that seems to fuse the toner onto thick paper better. My guess is that it runs the paper a little slower through the fuser to make sure to get enough heat transfer for fusing the thicker papers. Before I discovered that setting, the red toner would flake off easily.

Roger

[cgutzmer]

I think I will just stick to my trusty inkjet. I dont want to do any additional sprays or anything if I can avoid it. Both the minolta and xerox had cardstock settings and thats what I used on both.
Thanks for the replies!
Chris

[missymouse]

i'm not exactly sure what kinkos uses but i have never had problems with their toner flaking off on the color laser printers. but i have learned that if i go to the 24 hour kinkos in monterey vs the one open from 8am to 9pm in salinas, i get better color results because when the commercial type printers are shut off for the night, the pigment in the gel toner they use settles and reds become pink when the printers are turned back on and takes a few thousand prints for the colors to come back while the ones in monterey never shut off unless they go poof. i got the digital navy oslabya black hull version done at the kinkos in monterey and then needed a reprint of the waterline skins and went to salinas. i got 2 different shades in the ship :) so it seems the toner kinkos or any other big commercial print place uses is a gel base and soaks in slightly rather than the home/office units that sit on the surface.

[TheWebdude]

I used to print everything on a xerox phaser at work (for cost. not a bad deal). They're wax based and this was when I developed the habit of making my own scoring tool using a small paper clip as the rounded edge wouldnt break the surface of the print. My home printer is an inkjet. I prefer the matte like finish of the laser prints for vehicles and other models which benefit from a sheen but it is more difficult to work with and requires a bit of TLC in the handling.

[wojtek]

Shhh, don't tell anyone - I printed a model at work on the laser printer to see how it worked out.....

I printer the one of the Yamaha bikes and it printed out great! Only problem was when I folded the pieces the ink tended to flake off at the crease. Has anyone else encountered this? Don't tell anyone that I tried on a different type of laser printer at work (one xerox one Minolta) and had the exact same problem. I printed photo quality on heavyweight paper 44 lb for one 67 for the other. I never run into this problem on my ink jets at home.

Is this a problem with all laser printers? How do those of you that use laser printers get around this (if you have experienced it) I also see it fairly frequently where people take their Internet downloads in for "professional" laser printing - is this any different? I think that both of the laser printer types at work use solid ink that melts (however I am not certain on that)

Thoughts?
Thanks,
Chris

You should use CANON color printer thats what Kinko in Phily. use

[wojtek]

Shhh, don't tell anyone - I printed a model at work on the laser printer to see how it worked out.....

I printer the one of the Yamaha bikes and it printed out great! Only problem was when I folded the pieces the ink tended to flake off at the crease. Has anyone else encountered this? Don't tell anyone that I tried on a different type of laser printer at work (one xerox one Minolta) and had the exact same problem. I printed photo quality on heavyweight paper 44 lb for one 67 for the other. I never run into this problem on my ink jets at home.

Is this a problem with all laser printers? How do those of you that use laser printers get around this (if you have experienced it) I also see it fairly frequently where people take their Internet downloads in for "professional" laser printing - is this any different? I think that both of the laser printer types at work use solid ink that melts (however I am not certain on that)

Thoughts?
Thanks,
Chris

You should use CANON color printer thats what Kinko in Phily. use

[sforbes]

I've printed some black and white models at the office. The printer, HP1000 series, has a very good resolution on cardstock paper... but even scoring the model will flake off! As Rick says, it is powder. So after the printing I give it a couple of Krylon Crystal Clear coats.

I've never tried color laser. But I've printed on transparency (for the Galileo Space Craft antenna), and I had to work it VERY careful, as it trends to flake off too.

B&W models may work, but it depends on how to prepare the printed cardtock paper afterwards.

This works amazingly well. I have an HP Color laser and had problems with flaking when I was folding. The Krylon Crystal Clear not only keeps the toner on, but really gives the model a nice finish. Additionally, it seems to make my cuts a lot sharper for what ever reason. This is going to be my standard for all of my models.

[milenio3]

My Update. Well, I`ve been printing at the local Office Depot here in Juarez, Mexico. They have this Xerox Docucolor 250, and the printing is magnificent, although the price is not (I bet it`s cheaper in a house inkjet). Anyway, the thing is that I`ve built several models with that kind of printing without a single problem. In fact I`m right now sitting in the store waiting for my printing of the Deguchi Submarine diagrams. Maybe it is just like in Kinkos, and they never shut it off. Hope they can lower their prices though.
But I still don`t know how you call this kind of printing.

[sforbes]

A while back I was able to get an HP Color Laser 2600n for about $299 from Office Max. Typically if you look at the cost of inkjet cartridges versus toner cartridges you will find laser printers are much more inexpensive.

I am very happy with my laser printer and would recommend it to anyone that wants color copies at an affordable price. While mine was bought for business use, it is nice not to have to run out to get started!

[mb1701d]

When using Laser printers/copiers see if you can change the paper type settings. Setting to a thick paper mode will fuse the toner to the paper better.

[MapleLeaf]

Given the low prices of color laser printers today, I am considering getting one. I wonder if anyone has anything to ad to the opinions expressed in this thread. I ask because it has been almost a year since the last posting and things may have changed since then.
Happy new year all!

:canada1:

[Lex]

Ahem, I really don't like to admit but, erm, it does seem like coating laser print works. If you can't stand the smell of sprays, then a cheap sorta inkjet will do. Bearing in mind that inkjet are more expensive to maintain than laser printers. Their cartridges cost a fortune...

[The Hermit]

i use the giant format color laser printer at work

i agree that laser printers are best if you spray the sheets after printing.

if i do that i do not have any issues with the toner pealing ever...

even with 90' bends it doesnt peel

the only time it might wear is if i score the paper too hard.

i use decorative crafts clear acrylic sealer

and i get it at walmart in the crafts section

i like it so much that i use it on all of my printed models period

i dont print my models with out it. lol

http://www.plaidonline.com/productDetail.asp?itemID=CS200307

[Yellow Thunder]

But what about the resolution, f.e. this HP Color Laser 2600n is only 600 x 600 dpi, as the jet printers have a much higher resolution ?

Ciao,
Yellow Thunder

[Lex]

You normally don't get as high as the laser prints in inkjets, if you desparately want fine resolution then laser is the only choice.

[KCStephens]

Laser printers are the way to go, especially if you have free access to one at work or some place else. Almost every model that I have built has been printed using a laser printer. The only time that I had a problem with flaking toner was when I first did not seal the sheets with a clear spray sealer. From that point on I've used krylon matte spray and have not had a problem since. If you use a laser printer you must first use a clear spray to seal the sheets.
Something else to consider....When scoring laser printed sheets I have found that using a regular #11 blade is the best method. Just very, very lightly cut the surface of the sheet. Apply very light pressure with the blade - be very careful not to cut the entire way through the sheet. This method actually cuts the toner and helps to reduce any chance of flaking. The resulting cut edge is easily touched up with acrylic hobby paint (same as edge coloring) This scoring method may take a bit of practice to perfect, but when used along with first sealing the sheets, will produce beautiful clean sharp edges.

[The Hermit]

i agree with he above two posters

i dont care what the inkjet resolution said

you cannot beat the color laser jet
i have printed the same mode
on a injet and a color laser
with the inkjet supposedly having the higher rez
the laser beat it hands down
for example

the ship name printed on the back of the hull was not able to be read on the inkjet

it was precise and clearly read on the laser printer

that one demonstration proved it to me

i suggest that you try the same test as i did

you will be very suprised

the laser is just so much more precise than any inkjet

thats my 3.50$ worth
lol

thanks for reading

[christian5052]

I better stick to inkjet printing, I use epson and works pretty well.

[RINGMASTER]

I always give every sheet two coats of wood hardener, a lacquer based MinWax product before I do any cutting. I have not tried it with a laser print yet. It seals and stops frayed
edges.

[The Hermit]

i only print on laser now...

i use 2 coast of clear acrylic sealer plaid brand i dont have any issues with toner flaking ever.

i love my laser printed models and i wont go back

:wave:

[luvecraft]

About the clear sealer ,do they come in glossy one as well?
Will the toner run or bleed when we spray too near?

[cgutzmer]

Hello!
I have seen both matte and glossy. I have only used Matte but I dont see why it would make a difference. I used it on both inkjet and laser (solid ink sysytem type) and neither of them bled.
Chris

[luvecraft]

Jolly good sir!
Will be heading to the art shop next to pick up a can.:)

[cgutzmer]

One nice thing about spraying the paper.... If you spray over the laserjet (at least the solid ink types) it helps keep the dang ink from flaking off when you fold - this is the main reson I never use laser prints....
Chris

[SnakeEyesOnAPlane]

I've noticed flaking when I fold paper I've printed on with my colour laser printer. I've also noticed that the paper tends to curl at the edges when I print on it using the laser printer. Granted, that was just regular everyday business paper and not thicker paper for crafting. Still, I think I'll do my papercraft printing with my brother's inkjet from now on.

[cgutzmer]

with ya 100% there buddy :)

[Arsen NonLupin]

I prefer to use laser print (Canon LBP 2900) with black and grey, other colors I left blanc with photoshop. I painted it whith thin gel pan or markers. So, I had no problems with erased lines, because anytime I can re-draw them. No problem of curling edges because of few ink.
And I had one printing on color ink jet... what a hell it was... everything smoothed while assembling with glue.

[cgutzmer]

got some pics? :)

[Erik J]

A while back I asked a Canon repairman about the flaking problem, and he had some thoughts on it.

The larger laser printers, like at Kinkos, get the paper quite hot, so the toner bonds to the paper. When you use card stock it will also bond, but not always- depends on the machine. The machine at work that he was servicing did produce card stock prints that flaked off. I asked if placing those prints in the kitchen oven would re-bond the toner to the card stock. He didn't know but thought that I should try it. What I don't know is what temp would be appropriate, but it sure does look like a technique to try. Anybody know the temp needed in the typical officer copier? That would be nice to know before I bake a sheet or two!

- Erik

[MapleLeaf]

I suspect that the temperature required to "bake" the toner to the paper would end up scorching the paper. The heat in the copier/printer is applied very quickly and the paper then cools very quickly. I better idea would be to use an iron somehow. I am not sure what you could use between the iron and the paper. If you could get a sheet of silicone? I believe the pressure roller in the copier/printer is silicone. Some copiers used to use a silicone liquid on a the roller (obviously this would be in trace amounts or it would transfer to the paper.)I Googled " Copier Fuser temperature" and found one source that said a fuser can be up to 200 celsius. It is not only temperature however, but pressure that acts to bond the toner to the paper.

[Lord Red Dragon]

Great info guys, love this site for the help I can get without even asking.

[calinous]

Anybody know the temp needed in the typical officer copier? That would be nice to know before I bake a sheet or two!

- Erik
You should try with different temperatures for every type of paper that you use. Also, hot air "guns" used for heavy duty glueing could be used - they send air at (I think) 180 Celsius (but I think it might be selectable).

[mb1701d]

On copiers, when you print or copy you should be able choose the paper type. The ones that I service have at least one "thick paper mode" on the smaller models and 2 -3 on the larger ones (depending on the weight of the paper). This will help the toner transfer to the paper and most importantly slows down the paper as it travels through the Fusing Unit and bonds the toner better to the paper.

[Erik J]

Good tip. The printer at work didn't have an option for paper thickness choice.

My existing laser printed model pile needs some help, so I was looking to see what can be done to them.

The advantage of an oven over a heat gun is control of the temperature. I'd hate to experiment on prints and then have to print them all over again after screwing them up. I can work over a print with a heat gun (will have to borrow one) or pop one in the oven at some temperature, thus my temperature question.
- Erik

On copiers, when you print or copy you should be able choose the paper type. The ones that I service have at least one "thick paper mode" on the smaller models and 2 -3 on the larger ones (depending on the weight of the paper). This will help the toner transfer to the paper and most importantly slows down the paper as it travels through the Fusing Unit and bonds the toner better to the paper.

[calinous]

You could use a hair dryer set on hot and obstruct somewhat the air intake. This is dangerous for the life of the hair dryer though. If the paper starts to get yellow, you have enough temperature for anything worthwile.
Also, you could manufacture a concave/cylindric mirror (or use a looking glass) and use it to solar heat the papers (as the laser ink is black, it will heat much more than the paper, so you could protect the paper)
However, I think a oven would be the simplest bet, try first somewhat near the maximum temperature range (200 Celsius or so, let's say 400 Fahrenheit) for 5 minutes with blank pages. If they get yellow or cranky, you need a shorter time in.

Good tip. The printer at work didn't have an option for paper thickness choice.

My existing laser printed model pile needs some help, so I was looking to see what can be done to them.

The advantage of an oven over a heat gun is control of the temperature. I'd hate to experiment on prints and then have to print them all over again after screwing them up. I can work over a print with a heat gun (will have to borrow one) or pop one in the oven at some temperature, thus my temperature question.
- Erik